Limited Edition Himel Bros avail. at Orvis?

[navetsea]

stitches are for sissies, I want my jacket forged in fire!

 

[ton312]

@ton312 happy friday, sir!

Back at ya bretron!

 

[Gav]

When was this post

When was this posted?

Couldn't resist checking, this was added after 27th September according to Google web cache.

Previous version here:http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/process.php

 

[Benj]

That's great, I figured it had to be because of how specific their descriptions were, tailored to the comments here. I'm not quite sure I buy it, but I love the explanations behind these sorts of decisions and I'm happy that Aero has written more.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Couldn't resist checking, this was added after 27th September according to Google web cache.

Previous version here:http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/process.php

Viva la difference!

I'm glad they added more detail I guess.

 

[himelator]

I buy the argument of why a lower stitch count on leather is a better idea

I will explain stitch counts and skiving for those that want a brief explanation. First, vintage jackets for the most part in the early days had higher stich counts and used cotton thread, the machines were usually foot run, and the power of industrial machinery was only just being introduced. This meant smaller needles (the faster you stitch under power the more heat, friction and pressure the needle generates) and going slower to stitch the jacket. Puckering typically happens because of two issues, sewing very quickly (cost saving measure) does not allow the proper pattern adhesion so the leather buckles or is forced into the fit. You might see this on a sleeve join at the shoulder for example, or buckling on the zipper as you move too quickly down the stitch line and the walking foot moves the leather out of alignment. So for intents and purposes the slower you go the more even the stitches and the less buckling of the leather or ripples. Slower costs money of course. Second the leather must be snipped anywhere where there is a curve underneath to prevent the buckling. If you examine leather jackets that are sewn quickly you will notice a couple of things, like that there is usually rippling of the leather where the arm is attached to the body and that often as the sewing machine passes over bulky areas or turns around the shoulder the stitch length increases and decreases for inconsistent looks in the stitching. So the slower you go the more even the stitches are and the flatter the seams are but it costs more money. Now regarding perforating the leather: the key to maintaining strength in sewing a jacket is in the stitches. The more stitches per inch, the stronger the join so to speak. It is the force on the jacket dispersed on the number of stitches. So the higher the stitch count in practice the stronger the join. Now there is a variable here, in the past thread was cotton. Cotton is no where near as strong as poly or nylon, and because of that the olden dayz tailors used the best techniques for the materials they had...7-10 stitches per inch, over time the invention of nylon and poly core thread meant they could go faster and save money, faster you go, stronger the thread less need for high stitch counts, but at some point there was a sacrifice of the finish and the look, the puckering started. The poly thread does not break under high pressure so you can sew faster, along come motorized machines and you can go even faster. To keep up with the speed and cost savings a cutting point was added to the needle. That blade made a perforated sort of cutting x mark when it hit the leather. That x cut mark is apparent when you look at sewing done with that type of needle, if you used a high stitch count the leather would be so perforated that it would likely tear, however the makers using high stitch counts are not using that type of needle and for the most part are using cotton thread. I use both types of thread. The point of using cotton thread on my original 4 types of jacket was to replicate early techniques, which interestingly preserved the leather for resewing. Over time, poly and nylon act like little saws on needle holes eventually widening the hole and weakening the seam and sawing through the leather. That being said the smaller the needle the smaller the hole...on my jackets you can barely see the needle holes and the leather is less damaged and therefore the seams are very strong. Regarding skiving: in order to create a beautiful flat finish , where the stitching doesn't jump over bulky seams, you need to skive the leather. In many circumstances you can have up to 8 layers of leather folded over on themselves, creating a leather knot which is in my opinion ugly and can be uncomfortable ...like in the armpit or on the wrist. If you take 1.2 mm leather x 8 the knot would be almost 1 cm thick and then the motion of the jacket and comfort of the wearer is compromised never mind the look. So that addresses why skiving is important however it costs more money and does not weaken the jacket in anyway. Now with regards to the strength of the leather...in theory the strongest leather jacket would be made of pit tanned shoe leather, in fact ancient armour was made of just that, however you would not want to walk around in ancient armour, its bulky and uncomfortable. The strength of leather has to do with a lot of factors from type of hide to how it is made. Tanning is the biggest factor. Shinki hides are pit tanned, and from the way they dull our knives twice as fast as my Italian horse, and from my anecdotal stress tests they are the strongest leathers I use. I prize it because of its incredible shrunken grain, strength yet overall flexibility. I could choose 3.5 oz leather but it is like wearing cardboard, further in my vast collection of vintage leather 90% of the jackets are made of 1.2 mm 2.5 oz leather which is what I will continue to use. Also for reference 80% of my designs are from my head, original and referencing past jackets only in philosophy of construction. The fact that many appear similar in other brands I cannot account for. I like the lounge and you guys should really ask me. In reality its my fault for not blogging but as I work on my jackets, ship, design, sell, tradeshow, order parts and do all the things I've literally run out of time. Every detail costs money, every technique costs money, if you look through the history of vintage jackets you will see a slow shift to poly and nylon thread, cutting point needles and bigger stitches as North American brands tried to find ways to compete with cheaper japanese imports. Price is a funny thing. A lot of makers spend 4-6 hours sewing their jackets, and wont spend the extra time to do these things because their buyers want a certain price point. Some makers would not know how to do these things. I choose to use these techniques for the reasons cited above, cleaner finishes, flatter seams, more comfort amongst other things but this costs time, and time costs money. So really in the end all things considered those are the issues you should consider, better means a lot of things, but there are objectively better ways to sew, better ways to construct, better ways to tan, better ways to put things together, and there are cheaper ways, we all take that into consideration when we make our products. If i put truffles on your pasta i dont get them for free, if I hire elves with tiny knives to cut them with an electron microscope that costs to...if you dont want electron microscope cut truffles done by elves then dont buy them, but dont suggest that the elves didnt do it...maybe you dont value elves...i do, and microscopes, and truffles

 

[Sloan1874]

Oh, come on. If you're going to write that much, at least hit the return key a few times, just to make life a little easier for the rest of us poor rubes.

 

[singer]

Oh, come on. If you're going to write that much, at least hit the return key a few times, just to make life a little easier for the rest of us poor rubes.

Tough crowd here

@himelator's explanation is great, and I'm very thankful he put the time in to explain. This goes into much more detail than my own posts on the variables involved with stitching: the size of the hole, size of needle, tip type, shape of hole, the angle of the stitch, type of seam, leather thickness, etc. Saying "lower thread count is better/worse" doesn't lead to a good discussion without this context.

There are beautiful vintage 30s jackets with a very high stich count that were still in great shape today, like @handymike 's vintange barnstormer in light weight HH, and there are awesome, super rugged riding jackets with low stitch count and heavy leather.

I added some whitespace:

I will explain stitch counts and skiving for those that want a brief explanation.

First, vintage jackets for the most part in the early days had higher stich counts and used cotton thread, the machines were usually foot run, and the power of industrial machinery was only just being introduced. This meant smaller needles (the faster you stitch under power the more heat, friction and pressure the needle generates) and going slower to stitch the jacket.

Puckering typically happens because of two issues, sewing very quickly (cost saving measure) does not allow the proper pattern adhesion so the leather buckles or is forced into the fit. You might see this on a sleeve join at the shoulder for example, or buckling on the zipper as you move too quickly down the stitch line and the walking foot moves the leather out of alignment. So for intents and purposes the slower you go the more even the stitches and the less buckling of the leather or ripples. Slower costs money of course.

Second the leather must be snipped anywhere where there is a curve underneath to prevent the buckling. If you examine leather jackets that are sewn quickly you will notice a couple of things, like that there is usually rippling of the leather where the arm is attached to the body and that often as the sewing machine passes over bulky areas or turns around the shoulder the stitch length increases and decreases for inconsistent looks in the stitching. So the slower you go the more even the stitches are and the flatter the seams are but it costs more money.

Now regarding perforating the leather: the key to maintaining strength in sewing a jacket is in the stitches. The more stitches per inch, the stronger the join so to speak. It is the force on the jacket dispersed on the number of stitches. So the higher the stitch count in practice the stronger the join.

Now there is a variable here, in the past thread was cotton. Cotton is no where near as strong as poly or nylon, and because of that the olden dayz tailors used the best techniques for the materials they had...7-10 stitches per inch, over time the invention of nylon and poly core thread meant they could go faster and save money, faster you go, stronger the thread less need for high stitch counts, but at some point there was a sacrifice of the finish and the look, the puckering started. The poly thread does not break under high pressure so you can sew faster, along come motorized machines and you can go even faster.

To keep up with the speed and cost savings a cutting point was added to the needle. That blade made a perforated sort of cutting x mark when it hit the leather. That x cut mark is apparent when you look at sewing done with that type of needle, if you used a high stitch count the leather would be so perforated that it would likely tear, however the makers using high stitch counts are not using that type of needle and for the most part are using cotton thread.

I use both types of thread. The point of using cotton thread on my original 4 types of jacket was to replicate early techniques, which interestingly preserved the leather for resewing. Over time, poly and nylon act like little saws on needle holes eventually widening the hole and weakening the seam and sawing through the leather.

That being said the smaller the needle the smaller the hole...on my jackets you can barely see the needle holes and the leather is less damaged and therefore the seams are very strong.

Regarding skiving: in order to create a beautiful flat finish , where the stitching doesn't jump over bulky seams, you need to skive the leather. In many circumstances you can have up to 8 layers of leather folded over on themselves, creating a leather knot which is in my opinion ugly and can be uncomfortable ...like in the armpit or on the wrist. If you take 1.2 mm leather x 8 the knot would be almost 1 cm thick and then the motion of the jacket and comfort of the wearer is compromised never mind the look. So that addresses why skiving is important however it costs more money and does not weaken the jacket in anyway.

Now with regards to the strength of the leather...in theory the strongest leather jacket would be made of pit tanned shoe leather, in fact ancient armour was made of just that, however you would not want to walk around in ancient armour, its bulky and uncomfortable. The strength of leather has to do with a lot of factors from type of hide to how it is made. Tanning is the biggest factor. Shinki hides are pit tanned, and from the way they dull our knives twice as fast as my Italian horse, and from my anecdotal stress tests they are the strongest leathers I use. I prize it because of its incredible shrunken grain, strength yet overall flexibility.

I could choose 3.5 oz leather but it is like wearing cardboard, further in my vast collection of vintage leather 90% of the jackets are made of 1.2 mm 2.5 oz leather which is what I will continue to use. Also for reference 80% of my designs are from my head, original and referencing past jackets only in philosophy of construction. The fact that many appear similar in other brands I cannot account for.

I like the lounge and you guys should really ask me. In reality its my fault for not blogging but as I work on my jackets, ship, design, sell, tradeshow, order parts and do all the things I've literally run out of time. Every detail costs money, every technique costs money, if you look through the history of vintage jackets you will see a slow shift to poly and nylon thread, cutting point needles and bigger stitches as North American brands tried to find ways to compete with cheaper japanese imports.

Price is a funny thing. A lot of makers spend 4-6 hours sewing their jackets, and wont spend the extra time to do these things because their buyers want a certain price point. Some makers would not know how to do these things. I choose to use these techniques for the reasons cited above, cleaner finishes, flatter seams, more comfort amongst other things but this costs time, and time costs money.

So really in the end all things considered those are the issues you should consider, better means a lot of things, but there are objectively better ways to sew, better ways to construct, better ways to tan, better ways to put things together, and there are cheaper ways, we all take that into consideration when we make our products.

If i put truffles on your pasta i dont get them for free, if I hire elves with tiny knives to cut them with an electron microscope that costs to...if you dont want electron microscope cut truffles done by elves then dont buy them, but dont suggest that the elves didnt do it...maybe you dont value elves...i do, and microscopes, and truffles

 

[Sloan1874]

I'm afraid Himelator's wisdom will have to go unread by me. If he can't be bothered with punctuation, why should I bother trying to wade through that wall of text?

 

[singer]

I'm afraid Himelator's wisdom will have to go unread by me. If he can't be bothered with punctuation, why should I bother trying to wade through that wall of text?

I can't tell if you're joking, but I did add whitespace just for you, @Sloan1874 , if you expand the quote above

It took me a few seconds to read and understand the Himel's post even without the whitespace, and I learned a thing or two! You might even enjoy it!

 

[Superfluous]

Brilliant post Dave. I only wish you would post more often and share your vast knowledge and experience with us. BTW, the tweak to my brown Frobisher is perfect!!!

Dave's post should be archived for future reference.

 

[feltfan]

tl;dr
Time is money. Jackets made slowly are nicer, but cost more. We now have faster sewing machines and polyester thread, which is a bit faster
and stronger. Leather heavier than 2.5 oz is too stiff. He makes up his own designs.

 

[plainsman]

You cannot make the effort to spend two minutes reading something insightful on your hobby, Sloan?
I go through much more complex prose regularly and the thinking behind is often not as organized.
We should be respectful that one of the best manufacturer spends his time to give explanations.

I'm afraid Himelator's wisdom will have to go unread by me. If he can't be bothered with punctuation, why should I bother trying to wade through that wall of text?

 

[Seb Lucas]

You cannot make the effort to spend two minutes reading something insightful on your hobby, Sloan?
I go through much more complex prose regularly and the thinking behind is often not as organized.
We should be respectful that one of the best manufacturer spends his time to give explanations.

I couldn't read that long, dense post either.

 

[Gav]

I'm afraid Himelator's wisdom will have to go unread by me. If he can't be bothered with punctuation, why should I bother trying to wade through that wall of text?

Ah, the old diversion tactic. A classic from 'Internet arguing for dummies'.

 

[Gav]

I couldn't read that long, dense post either.

thanks for letting us know you reading abilities.

 

[navetsea]

I still believe a bigger rounder stitch hole and fatter rounder thread is blunter and thus safer for the leather.

tl;dr
Time is money. Jackets made slowly are nicer, but cost more. We now have faster sewing machines and polyester thread, which is a bit faster
and stronger. Leather heavier than 2.5 oz is too stiff. He makes up his own designs.

+ japanese horse is twice faster than a prancing italian horse
+ he values elves

 

[samo]

Regarding the stitching I am in the same boat as navetsea, so big stitch holes / strong thread / lower stitch count will result stronger seam as tiny stitch holes / thin thread / high stitch count. I think that it is also need to be considered that higher stitch count result in smaller distance between the holes what can considerably weaken the leather.

 

[Monitor]

Clearly, Himelators post reflect his stitch count. And is thus better.

No, I'm kidding. It is a very cool insight and a very relevant read. This sub-forum is 80% about leather jackets, yet we never hear from anyone who's actually in the business and we are mostly, you'll have to admit, theorizing on most things jacket related. So this is a really important bit of info and I thank Himel for taking the time to share.

As for the formatting... I didn't even notice anything until it was pointed out.

 

[samo]

Clearly, Himelators post reflect his stitch count. And is thus better.

No, I'm kidding. It is a very cool insight and a very relevant read. This sub-forum is 80% about leather jackets, yet we never hear from anyone who's actually in the business and we are mostly, you'll have to admit, theorizing on most things jacket related. So this is a really important bit of info and I thank Himel for taking the time to share.

As for the formatting... I didn't even notice anything until it was pointed out.

100 % agree with You.