Limited Edition Himel Bros avail. at Orvis?

[bretron]

Within my collection (not exclusively), I've got two goodwears, two aeros and another Bill Kelso on the way (yes, I said it). Quality, value, bored, what the eff ever; I've got my reasons for each. Buy your sh*t and love it, post pics and talk about it all day long, I'm totally cool with that and do the same thing. Brag about how much better your sh*t is than mine, get a fuggin life

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Some of the stuff in these posts is what takes the joy out of the excitement of posting about a new jacket for some, and also can set up a reluctance to even post pics of what may be considered not quite up to par. Arguments approaching personal insults only leaves a bitterness that many find unnecessary and want no part of, especially defending 'their' choice. Yet some continue regardless. Caught up in the fervor to strongly prove a point over and over again.

 

[bretron]

@HoosierDaddy

 

[Monitor]

...another Bill Kelso on the way

Leave this place and never return.

 

[ton312]

Leave this place and never return.

LOL. I'm watching a campus jacket on eBay.

And I know I'm not alone

 

[Benj]

I'm just interested in having a conversation involving our jacket preferences. If its not ok because some feel bad when I'm speaking generally about brands they may own, I should probably stop posting. Didn't realize y'all were that sensitive

Of course, it would be inexcusable to just barge in on someone's thread stoked about a new jacket but come on, no ones saying that.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Honest question, Dude: why do you like Himel's jackets? Do you like the vintage style, or simply knowing that you're wearing the best leather jacket in the world? I'm guessing if you didn't like vintage inspired clothes, you'd be into whatever StyleForum is drooling over at the moment, right? Price-wise, Himel is right there at the middle, so it's not the money, right? 'cause jackets from other (fashion) brands are going anywhere north of 4 grands.

But for instance, I like shoulder gussets going all the way to where the front and the back panels of the jacket connect. Like on Beck 666. So... Neither Himel nor RMC are making a Cafe Racer like that. Johnson Leathers does. So, what do I do? Do I buy an inferior Johnson Leathers because there's a particular minute detail of a leather jacket that like? That made me fall in love with these old jackets and subsequently, the style?

Or do I give up on it and just buy Himel or RMC just because it's better than, say, Johnson Leather?

Better example; Let's say I am dead set on Indian Ranger. Where am I gonna get the Indian Ranger? Aero's the only company currently producing an accurate repro of this jacket so where does that leave me? With the best repro of the Indian Ranger but with an overall poorer jacket? And how is buying RMC, Himel, Vanson or FW gonna get me closer to having the Indian Ranger? What do I do, man? How's the best gonna get me to what I want?

Or an even better example; you just got your Kensington or RMC J-100 and someone makes a post about how they just bought a 1960's original in a trift store for $20. Brand new, has been sitting in some box for 50 something years. Horsehide, Talon hardware, early Buco tag, the whole shebang. Where does that leave your jacket, then? Is it still the best or is it just a copy which, in comparison, has no historical value whatsoever? Do you feel shittier because it's no longer the best?

See, that's the thing - I don't want anyone to feel they didn't do good enough. That their jacket is inferior simply because they couldn't dish out more money for it, even though it's exactly what they wanted. This is the real issue here and what irks me about this whole matter. It's why in this particular hobby, I believe there simply is no the best.

So why are you into vintage inspired clothes? Is it just the overall style that is appealing to you? Or are you simply in love with how the collar snap is positioned on the very point of the collar on an early Beau Breed?

Maybe I'm in a minority but that's why I'm here. . .

Let me start off by saying that this is definitely a fair question you are asking me so I will do my best to give you a thorough answer.

Firstly: It is indeed not the money. Personally, I believe his jackets to be some of the best in the world. I believe that about my RMC jacket as well, despite the fact that they have actually fallen out of fashion in favor of Freewheelers and other brands in some of the places I frequent. I love my Himel and RMC jackets largely due to the leather used. I absolutely adore Shinki leather. I personally believe it is the best leather to use for jackets out there, but obviously it is not for everyone and other leathers are superior in other ways. The way it develops relatively subtle, yet beautiful character is highly appealing to me. Some veg tanned horsehides have too much grain for my taste and others, such as chromexcel are far too bland in appearance in my eyes. That said, I love chromexcel and other horween leathers for my boots so I do not in any way think they are poor leathers. Both of my current engineer boots and the boots I have on order are made of Horween leather and I love them.

Another aspect is indeed style/fit. My RMC A2 is not a historically accurate reproduction. It is their own specific cut and I love that about it. I find many, if not most A2 jackets look far too baggy when worn by their owners. In fact, I owned a different RMC A2 before my current one and sold it because I did not like the fit of it at all. It was far too boxy for me. The cut of this A2 was something I could not find anywhere else, which I love.

My Himel jacket is an interesting story. I had wanted a jacket from him for a while (and honestly would still like to buy more from him if I had the money), but when I went to Inspiration last year, I was not sure I was going to end up buying a jacket from him. I tried on a couple, but didn't fall in love with anything until I put on the grizzly as a joke. It turned out that I loved the way it looked on me and the way it fit. Of course, I was able to give Dave specific measurements which he hit right on the head (of course you can do this with Aero, Simmons, and other makers). The grizzly not only had my favorite leather, but as many people have stated, it is quite unique among grizzly jackets overall. The hair on hide construction in the first place is quite unique. It makes the jacket look much more streamlined and a little classier in my opinion compared to mouton grizzlies. This alone was a massive selling point for me on the jacket. It is very unique, perhaps the most unique jacket Dave makes.

In addition, the passion Dave has for this jacket in particular was important to me as well as Dave's passion for his craft overall. Sure, you could say he was just trying to sell me something and in part you could certainly be correct, but I would argue that at least in part, he genuinely had a love for this jacket in particular. There is a reason why it is the jacket that he wears to trade shows. It takes longer to make it and he is more involved with the process for this jacket. For better or for worse, I enjoy when someone cares this much about their products. I love that Brian and Brass take the extra time to hand welt their boots for example. The passion for the craft matters to me a lot. This is partly why I love Masterson's shirts so much. I got to meet Michael and see how much love he puts into his shirts. From my experience in talking with the owners of all of these brands (and I have talked to all of them), I am told or at least get the strong impression that they spare little to no expense to make their products. Other brands do spare expenses to some degree. Viberg, for example using stitch down instead of hand welted construction is sparing an expense (I could talk about this more if necessary).

The construction is also appealing to me. Himel uses 100% cotton thread and he and his sewer sew quite slowly, leaving the most minimal impact on the leather when sewing. The stitch work on my Himel, RMC, and FW jackets I have seen are art to me. There are other jackets I have owned and at least handled that do not have this level of stitch work and I prefer to have superior stitching on my jackets even if I know it doesn't matter.

I do not think that you should give up the Johnson leather for something else if the details work for you. If it's perfect for you, then it's the best for you, end of story.

The Himel Kensington would be my choice largely because I love the way it looks. I think it is the most beautiful cafe racer, personally and as a result, I would likely prefer it to a vintage jacket in perfect condition.

I probably should have clarified at first, but I think Himel is superior to many other makers in certain aspects, but not all.

I cannot remember ever insulting anyone's choice of Aero or going into someone else's thread and saying my jacket is better than theirs. I only assert that my jacket is superior in certain aspects.
The thing is, it seems that people have been unable to disprove my specific claims. If you prefer Aero or other makers, that is perfectly fine and you will get a great jacket.

"I don't want anyone to feel they didn't do good enough. That their jacket is inferior simply because they couldn't dish out more money for it, even though it's exactly what they wanted."

This, I disagree with strongly. Sometimes people can't do well enough. I work full time and do not have enough money for a Porsche. I have a Ford Fiesta. Is it exactly what I want? No. Am I content with it? Overall, yes. There is nothing wrong with this. I do not have the best car, and I don't really care too much about that. That does not change the fact that in most aspects, a Porsche or a Nissan GTR is superior to my Fiesta. If someone buys a cheaper jacket because they don't have the money for what they really want, then they do have an inferior product. If they can live with that, great. If they cannot, they will save up and buy what they want eventually or live with the unsatisfied feeling of not having what they want. Taking this attitude seems to me to be overprotective of people's feelings which I think is a very poor idea. Again, I am not going to go insult someone because they didn't get exactly what they wanted. I don't think I ever have. Still, it doesn't change the fact that they don't have what they want. Trying to protect them from that fact will not change the fact itself.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to explain my opinions further or if I missed anything or explained something poorly.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Some of the stuff in these posts is what takes the joy out of the excitement of posting about a new jacket for some, and also can set up a reluctance to even post pics of what may be considered not quite up to par. Arguments approaching personal insults only leaves a bitterness that many find unnecessary and want no part of, especially defending 'their' choice. Yet some continue regardless. Caught up in the fervor to strongly prove a point over and over again.

Let's be honest. This thread is 3 people or 2 people (Ben and myself) vs. the entire rest of the forum.
I would love to see anyone provide evidence of a time that Ben or myself have ever gone into someone else's thread and talked down on their jacket purchase and gone off on how what we own and like is superior. I have complimented and enjoyed seeing many Aero, Simmons, DD, and and even Kelso jackets posted. In most cases, the jackets are awesome and look great on their owners and their happiness over their new purchase is something we all share.

If a topic starts up, then I will likely chime in. I know this has happened in DD related threads, but I did not go in there with the intent to insult the OP's choice. In some cases, the OP is discussing some misgivings about their jacket in the first place.

If anything, my recent thread about my grizzly is the post wear someone (myself) was attacked over their new jacket and their opinions about it. I see that as quite ironic when you seem to be implying that Ben and I are the ones scaring people from posting their new gear.

 

[bretron]

I'd bet dollar to donuts that it's @A1's ole jacket. A fine one indeed. Tho I think it will be even better in natural badalassi

LOL. I'm watching a campus jacket on eBay.

And I know I'm not alone

 

[HoosierDaddy]

dwth
I think you have more than provided every little detail of why and how you prefer what you have stated in this thread and admonished any who dare not especially see it just that way 'for them'. For the life of me still can't understand why you are so intent on pressing the issue. It leads one to think 'jeeze' we get it...as this finally reaches the point that some of us are also happy with our choices as well no matter how you may go on about what you consider the ultimate pinnacles.
It's not the idea of invading someone else's jacket thread..it's about not letting it go after you made your statement. It can give the wrong impression and put some others off and that could include adding their 2 cents here or elsewhere in another thread.
Hey..this is just IMPO (maybe I just shoulda kept quiet). No hard feelings.
HD

 

[dudewuttheheck]

dwth
I think you have more than provided every little detail of why and how you prefer what you have stated in this thread and admonished any who dare not especially see it just that way 'for them'. For the life of me still can't understand why you are so intent on pressing the issue. It leads one to think 'jeeze' we get it...as this finally reaches the point that some of us are also happy with our choices as well no matter how you may go on about what you consider the ultimate pinnacles.
It's not the idea of invading someone else's jacket thread..it's about not letting it go after you made your statement. It can give the wrong impression and put some others off and that could include adding their 2 cents here or elsewhere in another thread.
Hey..this is just IMPO (maybe I just shoulda kept quiet). No hard feelings.
HD

Have you seen the responses I've been getting? How am I not justified in responding? Not surprisingly, there is no comment made on how I was admonished in my own thread.
I always said people can like whatever they want and I will like what I want.

Personally, I don't see it so much as pressing the issue so much as having a discussion. Why am I being singled out when others have responded more rudely than I have?

 

[Superfluous]

What strikes me most about some owners of Himmel and the like is the need to justify. The declaration of superiority over everything else.

Although I am not among those seeking to prove Himel's superiority, or to justify my unjustifiable purchases (they are undeniably insane), I unfortunately cannot disagree with your observation. Hopefully, the differing approaches among the Himel supporters posting in this thread is readily apparent.

Part of this is due to the fact that people who buy jackets from Himel and the like are looking for the best.

Dude! Might I suggest a more tactful, less elitist approach? Its fine to seek out the best, but you do not need to rub others' noses in it and thereby implicitly declare that their choices are inferior.

I don't see my post as an insult to you personally dude but you've just made my point perfectly crystal clear.

Yup

That is to say there's optimum price/quality point for everyone, and it varies for each individual. Once you pass this point, it becomes a case of diminishing returns

Exactly.

See, that's the thing - I don't want anyone to feel they didn't do good enough. That their jacket is inferior simply because they couldn't dish out more money for it, even though it's exactly what they wanted.

We should be cognizant of and sensitive to the preferences and circumstances of our fellow Loungers. BTW, this is bilateral. Those who elect to purchase more expensive jackets, and have the means to do so, should not disrespect others by disparaging less expensive alternatives. Conversely, those who either cannot afford the more expensive jackets, or simply elect not to spend the (stupid) money to purchase these jackets, should not disparage the more expensive alternatives. Mutual respect is the name of the game.

as this finally reaches the point that some of us are also happy with our choices as well no matter how you may go on about what you consider the ultimate pinnacles.

The end!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Although I am not among those seeking to prove Himel's superiority, or to justify my unjustifiable purchases (they are undeniably insane), I unfortunately cannot disagree with your observation. Hopefully, the differing approaches among the Himel supporters posting in this thread is readily apparent.



Dude! Might I suggest a more tactful, less elitist approach? Its fine to seek out the best, but you do not need to rub others' noses in it and thereby implicitly declare that their choices are inferior.



Yup



Exactly.



We should be cognizant of and sensitive to the preferences and circumstances of our fellow Loungers. BTW, this is bilateral. Those who elect to purchase more expensive jackets, and have the means to do so, should not disrespect others by disparaging less expensive alternatives. Conversely, those who either cannot afford the more expensive jackets, or simply elect not to spend the (stupid) money to purchase these jackets, should not disparage the more expensive alternatives. Mutual respect is the name of the game.



The end!

Well said. I definitely realize that the sentence you quoted from me is horribly elitist sounding. I did not mean for it to come off that way and I apologize for that. I definitely should have clarified more.

Either way, I still maintain that I'm still quite upset by the way I have been treated around here lately. Even with my mistakes, I still feel as though I am being singled out as a villain while I am not the only one saying some slightly stupid and rude things.

I find it interesting that you are the first person to tactfully and respectfully respond specifically to a point I said and give me constructive criticism. Thanks.

 

[Superfluous]

Well said. I definitely realize that the sentence you quoted from me is horribly elitist sounding. I did not mean for it to come off that way and I apologize for that. I definitely should have clarified more.

Either way, I still maintain that I'm still quite upset by the way I have been treated around here lately. Even with my mistakes, I still feel as though I am being singled out as a villain while I am not the only one saying some slightly stupid and rude things.

I find it interesting that you are the first person to tactfully and respectfully respond specifically to a point I said and give me constructive criticism. Thanks.

My compliments on your sincere apology.

You are a good man Dude. Forgive me for making the following observation, but I suspect one of the underlying factors at work here is age, and the (hopeful) wisdom/tact that comes with age (often from years of tutelage from a caring ( ) spouse). Youthful exuberance is fantastic, but sometimes clashes with the tact/diplomacy that can only be learned through experience.

Don't give up on us -- the community has not, and will not, give up on you. Group hug!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

My compliments on your sincere apology.

You are a god man Dude. Forgive me for making the following observation, but I suspect one of the underlying factors at work here is age, and the (hopeful) wisdom/tact that comes with age (often from years of tutelage from a caring ( ) spouse). Youthful exuberance is fantastic, but sometimes clashes with the tact/diplomacy that can only be learned through experience.

Don't give up on us -- the community has not, and will not, give up on you. Group hug!

Thank you very much.

You are probably right. I do tend to be overexcited. I like to think that it comes from a good place - one of passion, not anger.
Another problem is that I love to argue and have discussions. As much as I have felt attacked through all this, I still feel like I learned a lot and am a better person at the end of it.
This is partly why I continue these discussions. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation of presenting my point of view and defending it. Perhaps I get a little callous while doing so.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Personal preference is surely more important in a discussion on jackets. I personally don't get excited by the look of most Himmels while I do appreciate the craft involved.

Brands aside the search for perfection in a jacket gets boring once we start on Jesuitical analysis of stitch counts and 'your leather is better than mine' games... We've seen where that ends up here before.

Frankly, I prefer less well made jackets in mediocre leather, like the classic Brooks cafe racer. Or a 1960's Brimaco. As stated, the jackets that inspired many of us and the makers were not especially well made. They were fit for purpose which is usually as good as I want in a jacket.


In the end, I've never though that the point of a leather jacket (whoever makes it) is for it to be over-engineered and perfect. Nor have I ever chased the perfect haircut, or the perfect woman. These are are myths and easy roads to dissatisfaction.

I'd rather have 7 Brooks than 1 Himmel, 4 Brooks than one Aero.

 

[Benj]

Monitor, yours is a fun question so I'll answer it even though you didn't ask me. Dude and I have very similar opinions on things so it may help you gain insight into his thoughts too.

At least consciously, I don't really give a shit if something is vintage or not. It just happens to be that all the stuff I like is vintage inspired, and it may be a subconscious preference for vintage. I don't actively prefer that a Type 3 not have side pockets because it's more historically accurate, but I sure as hell think Type 3's look better without them, and short too.

If you like a particular style that is only offered by one maker, who may not have as extreme an attention to detail as those who make the highest priced jackets, I think that'd be insane to instead go for a design you didn't like as much just because the brand is arguably better. In fact, if I had to keep it, I wouldn't even pay $500 for a brand new custom fit Good Wear A2, since A2's just don't really do it for me. Doesn't matter the quality if you don't care for the jacket!

If you're main concern is aesthetic reproduction, I really don't have anything to say on the topic since I don't know anything about it, since I don't care... because vintage things don't interest me because they're vintage, just because I happen to like how they look. If the café racer never existed, I wouldn't love my café racer any less.

I also get much more joy from my jacket than I think I would from even the most pristine vintage one. I think that the jackets that we buy are much better than the ones that originally existed, that they may be based off of. And that's what really excites me: a great style (that happens to be vintage) coupled with incredible quality.

I think that we don't have to parse words about what we think is "the best", depending on our criteria. If someone's happy with what they have it's awesome, just because someone else wouldn't be happy doesn't mean it has to make you feel bad. And if someone thinks something else that is significantly more money is better, is that really so controversial? I mean, as dude said, I don't feel bad that my Infiniti isn't a mercedes, it also didn't cost that much. And the existence of something better doesn't make me like my infiniti less. But I'm also not going to pretend the mercedes isn't nicer...

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Personal preference is surely more important in a discussion on jackets. I personally don't get excited by the look of most Himmels while I do appreciate the craft involved.

Brands aside the search for perfection in a jacket gets boring once we start on Jesuitical analysis of stitch counts and 'your leather is better than mine' games... We've seen where that ends up here before.

Frankly, I prefer less well made jackets in mediocre leather, like the classic Brooks cafe racer. Or a 1960's Brimaco. As stated, the jackets that inspired many of us and the makers were not especially well made. They were fit for purpose which is usually as good as I want in a jacket.


In the end, I've never though that the point of a leather jacket (whoever makes it) is for it to be over-engineered and perfect. Nor have I ever chased the perfect haircut, or the perfect woman. These are are myths and easy roads to dissatisfaction.

I'd rather have 7 Brooks than 1 Himmel, 4 Brooks than one Aero.

I can definitely respect that. I also love the phrase "Jesuitical analysis of stitch counts"

 

[Guppy]

This thread has sure gone off into the weeds... To bring it back to the jacket:

I really like the look of this particular model. A lot of the designs Himel produces are not for me, but I could actually wear this one. Himel's jackets by and large are well outside my price range, and I have never seen one first hand. But I don't question the quality of his work, he seems to have a good reputation. Maybe if I win the lottery.

That said, $1600 for an orvis limited edition is really cheap compared to what he's selling on his own site. And normally I find Orvis to be pretty overpriced. It's not even the most expensive jacket in their catalog! If this Orvis jacket is made to the same standards as Himel's own regular offerings, I'd say it looks like a killer deal for one who has the means to afford it.

 

[A-1]

I totally get the perspective of both sides here. I also get why some people might get offended by one or the other writings here.
I'm just so very happy with my DD, haha. I think it looks so much better than all Aeros and Himels I've seen and touched and worn. So, I don't feel offended, just because I'm so content with my beautiful life in my beautiful leather jacket which kicks all other jackets ' asses! Uargh!
(This comment derived from my age and experience in life! Haha)