Let's Kill Hitler

[Guttersnipe]

well, I still maintain that the world Depression allowed those "charismatic" folks to take hold. The high unemploymebnt and lack of food helped convince the germans that the jews were to blame. If the Depression were not there, jobs, food, money, etc would be plenty and the Jews wouldn't be an issue, nor would Hitler. Same in Russia, same with Japan.

The Great Depression certainly played a role the Nazi Party gaining some popular support, but remember the hyperinflation crisis, internal political volatility, and social liberalization (increased free speech, the repeal of antisemitic statutes and draconian laws governing morality, etc.) were all hallmarks of the Weimar republic for many years before the depression; for a decade, the Nazis railed against such things. So I'd say the seeds were sewn long before 1929

However, the idea that the Great Depression caused a revival of antisemitism in Germany is plain wrong. The "science" of eugenics -- or "racial hygiene" as it was known in Germany -- traces its origins to the mid-nineteenth century. The Kaiser Wilhelm Society for the Advancement of Science, established in 1911, was at the forefront of advancing the theory of eugenics early on. However, the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Anthropology, Human Heredity, and Eugenics wasn't founded until 1926. Both academic institutions were instrumental in legitimizing prejudice racial by masking racism and antisemitism in pseudo-science.

You are close in so many ways as to what we here in my home look and view upon on how in the world that Hitler made his case to the population of Germany. First thing he really knew he would have to do is, to make a common cause to unite the population. So by making the wealthy business owners (of the Jewish ethnic) the "enemy of the State", he gained ground in popularity. Next up, he needed to give a reason for taking over all the businesses and telling everyone he would "turn them over to the State" so that everyone....everyone would share the wealth. Next he promised all the people that he would have social programs that would take care of all their needs, including medical care, food, etc. Now Hitler did a great deal of other things that are horrible to say the least, but by openly making all these promises and offering the programs to the general masses of the population of Germany, everyone then felt it might not be such a bad thing to allow him to run the show. We all know what he did with everything. He spent it all on war. There is some deep thinking individuals that conclude, when the once powerful German Mark fell, and that no one wanted any more currency from Germany, it would have ended the war regardless of had Hitler stuck around. The End was already there.

Actually property, real estate, and assets seized from Jews by the Nazis was given to party members and supporters as spoils of war and rewards for loyalty. In spite of the title "national socialism", Nazi Germany was anything but a socialist society.

One of the many nuances of Hitler and the Nazis was an ability to be all things to all people (like any good sociopath). Using terms like national socialism, populist rhetoric, and adopting a red flag were all calculated to appeal to the common man. However, behind closed doors, in the halls of power, the boardroom of industry, and the banquet halls of the aristocracy, it was quite a different story. Once in power, Hitler proved to be an invaluable ally to German business interests; he banned trade unions, allowed monopolistic practices, put in place defensive trade policies, and nationalized virtually nothing.

 

[jamespowers]

well, like all great dictators, he followed a set list:
1. take advantage of a crisis
2. instill fear in the public heart
3. provide a solution.
4. take control of the elections
5. take contol of the military
6.instill martial law.

History is full of that.

The problem was that he was insane and unqualified to run even a lemonade stand much less military strategy. If he was qualified then he would have been a twentieth century Caesar such as Alexander the Great. There was a capability there that was not used correctly---Thank God!

 

[Guttersnipe]

Just to be clear: he didn't target only wealthy, business-owning Jews; he targeted all Jews, even those who no longer considered themselves Jewish or who had gone so far as to convert to another religion--even those whose parents and grandparents had converted to another religion.

Interesting thought experiment.

A

Also, trade unionists, communists, socialists, republicans, liberals, intellectuals, Freemasons, gays and lesbians, Jehovah's Witness, Slavic peoples, the mentally disabled, the physically handicapped, and the Roma (so-called Gypsies)

 

[jamespowers]

Once in power, Hitler proved to be an invaluable ally to German business interests; he banned trade unions, allowed monopolistic practices, put in place defensive trade policies, and nationalized virtually nothing.

And how is that different?:huh:

 

[LizzieMaine]

The Great Depression certainly played a role the Nazi Party gaining some popular support, but remember the hyperinflation crisis, internal political volatility, and social liberalization (increased free speech, the repeal of antisemitic statutes and draconian laws governing morality, etc.) were all hallmarks of the Weimar republic for many years before the depression; for a decade, the Nazis railed against such things. So I'd say the seeds were sewn long before 1929

Indeed. Hitler had put all of his ideas into hard print and was building a movement long before the Depression, and all of those ideas had roots extending far back into the nineteenth century. Hitler never had an original thought in his life -- Mein Kampf is nothing but page after page of ideas warmed over and reprocessed from concepts which were floating around the gutters of Vienna in 1910. Antisemitism absolutely flourished in pre-WWI Europe -- that was the era that, remember, produced the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion, a conspiracy theory that influenced Hitler, and which still has adherents today. It was his repackaging and creative marketing of those ideas that caused them to catch on as they did

 

[Guttersnipe]

And how is that different?:huh:

Well, Herbert Hoover or Winston Churchill were no allies to labor per se, but their anti-labor policies didn't involve the wholesale jailing and murder of trade unionists, and later their families too! I'd say that's quite a difference. Democracy: a little goes a long way!

 

[Lotsahats]

Also, trade unionists, communists, socialists, republicans, liberals, intellectuals, Freemasons, gays and lesbians, Jehovah's Witness, Slavic peoples, the mentally disabled, the physically handicapped, and the Roma (so-called Gypsies)

Completely true and so important to remember. A lot of us have forebears who went to the gas chambers. I was only addressing one aspect of the comment.

Let's get back to the possibilities. The atrocity and evil of Hitler isn't the point of his thread, and I didn't want to hijack.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think it all comes back to how crucial Hitler himself was to the ideas he represented. There would have been plenty of reactionary anti-semitism in Europe with or without Hitler. The question is could anyone else have marketed it as successfully as he did? What if Charles E. Coughlin had been born in Germany instead of Ontario? Or Huey Long, in Austria instead of Louisiana? What if Lenin had been German?

 

[LoveMyHats2]

An interesting thought would be, if any of the plots that had it in for taking out Hitler would have been a success, would that have been the end of it, (Nazi Germany)? A few came close to killing Hitler.

Humans have both good and bad in our past history. Daniel once told me a true story of a friend of his that had so many bad things happen to him, that it made him go off the end, turn to crime, and the values of that person changed to so low, sad when things like that happens. But, Hitler, seems to hold a well discussed record of being just flat out evil.

With all that comes to mind, if Hitler WERE killed, say even in the middle of his power and the War, the possibilities that some other evil greedy person that was deep in the Nazi Party may have just well have taken over. And it would be hard to tell what way things would have gone. I do think that the general World population however, would have made anyone person that could have claimed to have "taken out" Hitler, would have gone down in history as a hero.

 

[Two Types]

The trouble is that, if you kill Hitler and that results in WW2 never happening, as a Brit I would have to face the prospect of not being able to look back through history and say "That was a war worth fighting".

I'm not a royalist and I'm not particularly nationalistic (no flag waving or anthem singing from me), but I am proud to be from a country that fought a just war and came out on the winning side, but which at the same time hastened the end of its empire, exhausted itself, ended up in debt to its main ally, replaced its regressive leader with a progressive one and started down the path of making it a great place (free education, free health care, social security, increased social housing and improved opportunities for people regardless of class etc). For the UK, 1945 was a time of quiet - but profound - revolution.

I won't say what I think of those who subsequently undermined that position, because I know we shouldn't stray into politics.

 

[jamespowers]

Well, Herbert Hoover or Winston Churchill were no allies to labor per se, but their anti-labor policies didn't involve the wholesale jailing and murder of trade unionists, and later their families too! I'd say that's quite a difference. Democracy: a little goes a long way!

An Stalin and Mao were? They were the ones doing the jailing etc., etc. and for a whole lot longer than Hitler.

 

[Guttersnipe]

An[d] Stalin and Mao were? They were the ones doing the jailing etc., etc. and for a whole lot longer than Hitler.

The quote Sir Winston Churchill, "democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

 

[Stanley Doble]

It is slightly puzzling to me that the Nazis idealized the hunky blonde Nordic type but were mostly small, dark and unathletic.

They also trumpeted the importance of putting the Superman or Master Race in charge, while they themselves were a prize collection of losers, cripples, jail birds, drug addicts, perverts and screwballs.

I don't know if this has any political or social significance. It just seems funny as in weird.

 

[Guttersnipe]

It is slightly puzzling to me that the Nazis idealized the hunky blonde Nordic type but were mostly small, dark and unathletic.

They also trumpeted the importance of putting the Superman or Master Race in charge, while they themselves were a prize collection of losers, cripples, jail birds, drug addicts, perverts and screwballs.

I don't know if this has any political or social significance. It just seems funny as in weird.

I think it absolutely does have significance.

Until membership in the Nazi Party became an expedient route to quick advancement, the vast majority of party members came from a certain segment of society; uneducated, petite bourgeoisie loudmouths. They were the type of people we'd recognize today as soccer hooligans or street corner thugs. The appeal of Nazi ideology to such disaffected individuals was that it placed blame for personal shortcomings on an external source. It told them they were Übermensch, destined to rule the world, but that evil forces conspired to undermine and oppress them. Those forces were Jews, Gypsies, Freemasons, decadent Francophile aristocrats, and Slavic immigrants/refugees, all of whom took order from the "Elders of Zion".

For a very long time, the traditional scions of the German state, the military, the aristocracy, and the intelligentsia, thought of them as a joke. They were viewed as just a pack of beer swilling provincial Bavarian rubes. Of course, that underestimation proved to have deadly consequences . . .

 

[Two Types]

a prize collection of losers, cripples, jail birds, drug addicts, perverts and screwballs.

That sounds like any group of politicians!

 

[Smithy]

It is slightly puzzling to me that the Nazis idealized the hunky blonde Nordic type but were mostly small, dark and unathletic.

Nazism appropriated a large amount of Viking ideology and symbolism into its "mythology". The use of runes in SS unit insignia was just one small, albeit very visible symptom of this.

Their Übermensch view (and the very use of the word) was closely aligned, although very selectively, with Nietzsche's use of the term.

Very much a case of pick and choose with the Nazis.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It is slightly puzzling to me that the Nazis idealized the hunky blonde Nordic type but were mostly small, dark and unathletic.

They also trumpeted the importance of putting the Superman or Master Race in charge, while they themselves were a prize collection of losers, cripples, jail birds, drug addicts, perverts and screwballs.

I don't know if this has any political or social significance. It just seems funny as in weird.

There was a lot of that going around in the twenties for some reason. In the States you had a thriving industry going in selling a two-dollar nightshirt to the village malcontent so he could be a Knight Of The Invisible Empire. Then in the thirties, William Dudley Pelley hit on the same kind of marketing scheme when he came up with the Silver Legion -- rounding up a collection of do-nothings, know-nothings, and metaphysical fanatics, dressing them up in silver shirts, and convincing them that they had a divinely-ordered mandate to rid the world of Jews, Communists, "race-mixers," labor unions, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

I don't think Germany had any monopoly on extremist screwballs in the Era. Every industrialized nation had its share. The only real difference was in the effectiveness of the salesmanship.

 

[jamespowers]

That sounds like any group of politicians!

:rofl: You said it!

 

[jamespowers]

The quote Sir Winston Churchill, "democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Exactly my point.

 

[sheeplady]

I find this all fascinating reading. Thank you everyone for sharing.

There was a lot of that going around in the twenties for some reason. In the States you had a thriving industry going in selling a two-dollar nightshirt to the village malcontent so he could be a Knight Of The Invisible Empire.

I know this shouldn't make me laugh.... but it did.

I wonder what makes the crazies come out so badly. I suppose we still have crazies running around, but they mostly fail to organize themselves into anything "meaningful" (thank god)- and not anything as networked as the Klan. These people obviously had a few screws loose already, felt excluded from what they thought should be their status by birth, and then organized into these groups that killed people. I've often wondered if some of it wasn't fueled by the "prosperity" of the 1920s- which these people felt entitled to but weren't a part of.