Keeping secrets while a craft dies out

[Fletch]

My floor guy (I'll probably hire him again, and I'd recommend him without reservation) isn't rich by any means. He can work only so fast without sacrificing quality, and he can charge only so much. But he makes a decent living and he's in a remarkably fit physical condition for a man his age (early 60s, I'd guess). And he gives every indication that he's happy with who he is and what he does. To my way of seeing things, he's successful in ways many far wealthier people (and poorer ones, for that matter) never will be.

Sounds like a great life if you've got the knees for it!

Somehow I see the hat craft as different, tho. The floor man might provide (say) 80% service vs 20% goods. The hat man - probably the reverse, maybe 70/30 if you do a one-off, original, customer-assisted design. You're not working in people's homes and helping them maintain their livability and investment for what might be decades. You're providing something where the end user is much less involved, even if he's designing the thing hisownself.

Add the fact of craft knowledge and experience, which you have and they don't, and there is a temptation to really take charge. You see this with custom tailors. Their tradition is to guide the client's sense of style into what is appropriate, tasteful, sensible, the done thing. They can be downright autocratic in refusing to deviate from that. That's one reason it's so hard to get them to copy vintage tailoring: the done thing always is the done thing today, or for the past 5-10 years. If you're very lucky, you'll get a veteran whose experience goes back to 1970!

I'm thinking the hat trade doesn't have that problem - not to that extent anyway. If more tailors agree to go the route of (say) Matt Deckard, I will be looking out the window for flying pigs. lol

 

[Pompidou]

Add the fact of craft knowledge and experience, which you have and they don't, and there is a temptation to really take charge. You see this with custom tailors. Their tradition is to guide the client's sense of style into what is appropriate, tasteful, sensible, the done thing. They can be downright autocratic in refusing to deviate from that. That's one reason it's so hard to get them to copy vintage tailoring: the done thing always is the done thing today, or for the past 5-10 years. If you're very lucky, you'll get a veteran whose experience goes back to 1970!

Rightfully so, in some ways when the tailor has a reputation for standards to uphold. My own custom hat brought this to the fore. It was an education process for me in terms of the realities of hat making, IE: what a hat block and such is capable of, and a compromise between my desire for something nobody's seen before and Art's desire to maintain dignity and integrity as a hat maker. The results were beyond perfect. I've never been to a tailor, only the "Wardrobe Specialist" or whatever the title is at Men's Warehouse, and not even for a suit, but for a complimentary look with some expensive jeans, a button down shirt, shoes and a belt. I took advise on the shoes, but went my own way on the rest.

 

[Jedwbpm]

When and where are you opening your cafe so that I can come visit.

Jeff

 

[John in Covina]

You have to have something good to sell and you need to take care of the customers. You have to operate profitably otherwise the business fails. As I said, it isn't rocket science. Business is mostly a matter of common sense.

Many business fail because the owner does something well but their skills are not complete to cover all of the aspects of making the item, selling it and handling customers. From so many threads on the Lounge we see that a breakdown in communication with the customer leads to great frustrations and bad feelings. The best people can make it a working balance others fall short on the customer side time and again. Sometimes all it takes is a part time person handling the paperwork and communications or shepherding procedures a few hours a week to swing things to greater success

 

[JimWagner]

Not everybody with dough wants a cookie cutter (pardon the metapun).
And not everybody with a fresh product or idea is a glorified hobbyist.

Of course not. Didn't mean to imply such a thing.

Just for fun, Jim, if you were pitching a hat business, where would you innovate? What would you like to see as a customer (which you evidently are) that might appeal to other customers?

First, I don't think I'd pitch a custom hat business to an investor. By that, I mean I'd most likely not be looking for outside investors at all. I'd try to start small, learn my craft, gain the expertise and experience and build accordingly. That might mean some years keeping my day job and building slowly.

That's possible today because of the internet. It's great for selling in vertical markets. You can build a business that way that you'd never be able to while depending on walk in business in a brick and mortar one.

If we're talking about a hat retail business, then that's a completely different matter. And that gets to one of the points I was trying to make about enthusiasts.

Let's say I'm really a fan of fedoras. (OK, I am.)

I want a brick and mortar retail business that sells top notch fur felt fedoras. And only top notch fur felt fedoras. No caps. No canvas hats. No wool felt. No cloth fedora shaped objects covered in sewn or painted on patterns. In other words, only the hats that the more discriminating FL members would wear. Maybe a Homburg or two if they are classy enough. No gangsta Homburgs.

I've just described myself as an enthusiast, not a business man. I only want to sell what I like, not what the public likes. What do they know, after all?

I don't have the money right now to open up this elite hat shop so I'll need to get an investor. And he better not tell me that I have to sell any of those hats I hate. What does he know about hats anyway?

I probably haven't even done enough research to have a realistic idea whether there's both a demand for what I sell and enough potential walk in business to actually support my fantasy. And since I haven't, then a fantasy is all it is. Innovation it isn't.

Personally I don't really think the time is right to open an exclusive hat business at the retail level. It won't be until hats are in all the departments stores, most men are wearing them, and the stage has been reached where men with money are looking for top end exclusive (expensive) hats to show they are a notch above the common hat wearer. Even then, you'll have to be in the larger cities.

The fact that there are some custom hat makers who make some great hats doing ok in the internet space would indicate that there is a market for that kind of product, but probably not on every street corner.

And I truly don't think there is a short cut to that kind of business that just needs an investor. I have more respect for the time spent and the dues paid by those actually successful in that business than that.

 

[Alan-Eby]

I think what should happen then, is that the Fedora Lounge starts a hat shop, where hats are made and sold, there are enough talented folks here, from a wide, variety of fields to make it work well. The main problem there would be location, but its a nice fantasy. I'd love to see our community here running a store where we could indulge in our love of nice hats and cool clothes, and help start the Fedora Revolution!!!

 

[Fletch]

Rightfully so, in some ways when the tailor has a reputation for standards to uphold.

Standards have to do first and foremost with quality. Style is closer to a taste than a standard. Putting it another way, what if Art, or any other hatter, tried to talk you out of anything other than a "standard" hat, with such and such a crown, brim, ribbon, color, etc.?

We're lucky in hats - we can get styles that are no longer quite the done thing. In tailored clothing, that's a lot harder. And not all of it is because of the cost and complexity of the work. Some is purely due to tradition. That's where the customer with his own tastes hits a brick wall.

 

[fmw]

Well said, Jim and absolutely correct.

 

[Jedwbpm]

I was a Liquor and wine salesman and we always said "I could never make a living selling only what I like to drink". That said I see a lot of the old how to be a salesman for the good of the shop and customer gone. I assume that like my local hat shop most do most of there volume online and not through the front door. When I walk into my local hat shop I am not there main concern. During the holidays they don't have their hatter come in because he is in the way of the mail order people. If you walk in and only the mail order people are there they don't know how to size you, or do the patter that builds the sale. I saw a husband and wife come in. She needed a Cowboy hat in white. Right off the internet sales girl brought out a Stetson Wool Rancher in silverbelly. Never tried to up sell her to fur. As they were checking out I complemented the lady on her choice and suggested that she get a hat brush for it since they tend to show dirt and finger marks. The husband thanked me and they bought one. I could tell these people were not looking for cheep and wanted quality that would last. I think that an upsell to fur should have been tried. Never under sell your costumer even if you don't think they can afford it.

Now I spent most of my life in the Member Only Club business. At the time it was one of the last professions that one could apprentice in. One can't anymore everyone wants a worthless college degree in Hotel Admin. I would be let in on little tricks of the trade when I would notice them on my own, and then I would get the whole story as to why and wherefores. You had to show that you were ready to learn the lesson. As the saying goes a Lesson earned is a lesson learned as long as doesn't come to dear.

Jeff

 

[Fletch]

Not sure all on the craft side would agree with the "too dear" part. Sometimes it seems like the dearer, the better.

 

[Panamabob]

It would be nice to be open about the craft but what I learned early on the it really is just like any biz. You have to protect what you got because other will do everything they can to keep you down. Why do they do it. Mostly because they feel threaten by the new guy. Heck when I started a three years ago there where people trying everything possible to keep me down. Heck they still do it. Some have told lies about me trying to keep me from buying vintage ribbon or or sources like panamas. You guys would be shocked by the guys doing thing like this. in a biz like this, do you really expect some one man shop to trust anyone?

John, you're way off base accusing Art of anything. The stories I've heard about you are from the coasts and south of me, but most certainly not from Art. I told you I didn't like the stories and was weary in getting into selling you bodies. One saving grace was a rescue call from Germany (for whom a special hat is being woven). As I've said before, your hats are, well, you know where they are. Give him a call and leave me out of the middle next time. As soon as I have them back, you'll have them. If it's another of Art's sources for Panamas that you're alluding to, mea culpa. I'd still like to NOT be in the middle.

 

[Andykev]

Gentlemen,

This began as a valid thread, a question, observation regarding "trade secrets" and the inner dynamics of the hatting industry. I am very fearful that the beginnings of personal attacks are surfacing.

Quite honestly, I see that one hatter has some serious issues with others in the trade. This is not the area to discuss these matters which are business related and certainly personal.

Hatters are not unlike artists, musicians, master wood workers. What would you expect if you knocked on the door to Norm Abrahm's shop (The New Yankee Workshop) and announced "Norm, teach me all you know!" I suspect, the door would be *politely* closed on you. Why? A Master Carpenter didn't get there without a lot of hard work, and YEARS of experience. I would love to see the "behind the scenes" film where you see his mistakes (I am sure they happen). The point, you should realize that first, he is under no obligation to share his craft with you (other than on TV), and second, he probably has no time. You can quickly go broke and starve when everyone knocks on your door, asks for advise or tips, and then leaves with not having paid a thing!

The bottom line is this: Hatters learn their "CRAFT". A craft is something you EARN, LEARN, and YEARN for. A PASSION. Do you have that many hours in the day to give away your time with no income to show for it? MANY trades, occupations, etc. earn their living because they have knowledge and skills..and they basically sell their talents.

A symphony violinist can "show"you how to play, hand you the violin, but when you pick it up the sound is never the same as from the master.

And now....this thread is closed. It has covered the "point", and I don't want it to become the "finger point".