Keeping secrets while a craft dies out

[Guttersnipe]

Now, we have to ask, why can the artist afford to do what the artisan cannot? Is there any reason any longer or is it just generations of tradition coming out of an apprenticeship hierarchy?

Simple realities of physical labor and economic is why. Unlike musicians, who age like wine, skilled artisans age like cheese (which is to say they peak and then decline). This is particularly the case in physically demanding crafts. The older guys know this, and therefore see younger guys (at a "journeyman" level) as a threat which is often manifested as hazing. The economics comes into play in that younger artisans are often more attractive to employers because they work for cheaper, can maintain a faster pace for longer and don't get sick as often. For a skilled tradesman that's a foreman/owner economics comes into play again in that apprentices require additional supervision and slow more skilled craftspeople down . . . again hazing is often a result.

For my part, I'm totally on board with you regarding hazing. I endured a lot of it as an apprentice and when I became a foreman (and later owned my own printing company) I never, NEVER, NEVER ever allowed it to go on.

 

[Fletch]

There have been and still are, at least with singers, and I assume with instrumentalists as well. Under the old system a young singer would be brought up through the ranks of a small opera house, learning technique from a teacher who learned it from his/her teacher some with pedigrees stretching back to the 18th century in some cases (the best techniques were those taught by the castrati in the early 19th century). Also, many people taught in one technique really do not trust other techniques at all, and there are rivalries within them. However, while a little of this still exists, training has become increasingly academic, with a masters degree in performance becoming necessary to enter into a young artist program or apprenticeship in which one gets to polish and experience needed to command the stage.

That's similar to the craft apprenticeship, but one important difference is that the apprentice is allowed to practice to the extent s/he is able. Traditional apprenticeships hold one back for the sake of hierarchy, loyalty and ritual.

Imagine not being able to sing a supporting role or play a 2nd violin part for 4, 7, even 10 years after you've got it under your fingers. The excuse, in crafts, is to give due honor to the declining prowess plus the heightened wisdom of the elders. I say fine - let their contribution be more wisdom and less prowess! We all have our day.

You're very right about the schools of approach. The woodwind world is crawling with them: you don't cross boundaries between one school or another of clarinet, flute, saxophone, bassoon. It's disloyalty, it's anathema, it's an insult to Art. Oh, and - it's a gilt-edged hand-engraved invitation to backstabbing.

Except when you can cross over, with the help of an openminded artist/mentor, which is still an exception that calls attention to the rule. What is possible is not always feasible until you have some numbers on your side.

Back to hats. if you're here and have ever helped anyone about working with a hat, you've already crossed over in that sense. You've helped make the possible feasible. You're helping keep the craft alive - for itself and all of us who love it.

The question then becomes: how far is too far? Is Aureliano advertising for a tollicker okay, or has he gone a step too far? What if he got one? What if someone said, I've got one, but not for you?

 

[tonyb]

Sharing the basics with amateur/hobbyist/aspiring hatters is fairly common. It's doubtful that more than a few people who dip a toe in the water will ever get in up to their waists, let alone their necks. Equipping a hat shop isn't a matter of a few bucks here and a few bucks there. And the materials a working hatter really has to keep in inventory can be hard to locate and quite costly. A one-man operation, even if that man has a ton of experience, can produce only so many hats, so recovering that investment might take a good long while. And there's always more stuff to acquire.

But if a guy wants a block and a flange or three with which to refurbish his own hats, well, now we're talking just a few hundred dollars, probably. And he can acquire what small quantities of ribbon and leather and liners he might need at retail prices, which, while a whole lot higher than I'm comfortable paying, still don't amount to a large outlay. That's all within reason for the average hat aficionado, I'd think.

 

[Effingham]

I have a website on the construction of Japanese armour. I studied armour making in Japan with people whose families had been making armour for centuries.

I understand some folks are actually upset that I put this up on the web. While part of me gets that, another part of me believes that knowledge belongs to all. Skill is still important, so knowing *how* isn't everything.

I remember reading a mystery novel talking about a small neolithic tribe, where each member of the tribe specialized in a different thing. "What happens," one character wondered, "if the guy who makes the bows and arrows falls off a cliff? The tribe has just lost that basic technology, and lost about 10,000 in one accident."

I don't know what point I'm trying to make, but there's something there about someone who knows all the secret tricks and methods of some craft (say, making hats), keeping them to himself, and then dying without passing along what he knows. All that knowledge is now useless and gone.

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

I realize that this is a VERY basic question, but how many size hats can one teardrop crease hat block crease? Do you need one for 6 7/8, 7, 7 1/8, 7 1/4, 7 3/8 and so on? Shopping at custom hat shops on the internet, and close to home...

Thanks

 

[Fletch]

I don't know what point I'm trying to make, but there's something there about someone who knows all the secret tricks and methods of some craft (say, making hats), keeping them to himself, and then dying without passing along what he knows. All that knowledge is now useless and gone.

It's been done, too, out of misplaced loyalty to a master or a trade. How many say "I want this to end with me"? Few do, I imagine. It's just that there is a tradition that you don't question, and part of that is that there are times to let it die.

Lounger 59Lark got crosswise of that tradition with one old hatter. Read about his dealings with Herman The German.

 

[Art Fawcett]

"Keeping secrets while a craft dies out" ..is this meant to be the indictment it sounds to be?

Fletch, maybe I'm particularly dense today but I'm not sure I fully understand your point. Apprenticeships just don't exist with regularity in hatting so, like tonyb says, it's trial & error, heavy emphasis on error these days. I myself have helped and regularly help 3 other budding hatters and have no problem with that. I don't do it publicly though.

What I DO have a problem with is others copying my work down to every known detail. One doesn't have to look far to see hatters capitalizing on my ribbon work, heck, even my hatbox. So the question is, why would I pioneer methods and techniques , creating a market that was not previously there, only to be mimicked by those that DON'T put the time in but rather steal from others that do. If you doubt what I'm saying please just look at how many hatters are using the VS color stripe in their knots. It's pretty staggering & that did not exist prior in the market.

Bendingoak talks about backstabbing and he is right. Even though I have special arrangement for some of my colors to be dyed exclusively for me and I pay dearly for it, there is at least ONE hatter that claims to have all of my colors and freely spreads that lie. This is just too small a community for that. I actually got a call from my supplier asking if that hatter is my partner, as HE said he was to them, hoping to get my felts also.

There are a lot more reasons for some secrecy Fletch but I think the most important to me is that I keep what I've earned through sweat . Call it self preservation, selfishness, what ever you'd like but it has to be there to an extent. More than once I have given advise to a newbie only to have it come back at me when they screw it up so, sometimes a bit of knowledge is a bad thing. As for other hatters? The ones that aren't busy stabbing me in the back and ask, get answers to the best of my knowledge. Those that are only interested in copying everything I do and patting themselves on the back , get the boot.

As for the article, I can't pull it up so I can't comment on it. I CAN comment on Michael though and since day one he has been the most secretive man I have known. When I asked him about 20 yrs ago if he would be available for questions when I first was starting out, his answer was, and I quote, "Art for $100, 000 I'll teach you all you need to know". Note, not all I asked, but what HE thought I needed to know. I gave him a smart answer " If I had 100K Michael I'd be on a beach sucking up Mai Tai's". I never asked another question of him.

At about the same time I was co owner of Vintage Fashion Expo and invited him to speak about Panama's ( paid of course) and his response was " I will NOT give up my secrets!!!" . I was stunned, I only asked him to speak about panama's , not reveal his innermost secrets. ugggg

Make of that what you want but that in a nutshell is Michael so I would take everything he says with a grain of salt.

 

[bowlerman]

Unlike musicians, who age like wine, skilled artisans age like cheese (which is to say they peak and then decline).

Believe me, there are a lot of bottles of musical vinegar out there. the "finest wine" of that lot usually passes at around age 33 or so...

 

[RBH]

I have to say I have sat in a room with both Mike Moore and Art Fawcett [with Mike many times and with Art more than once] .. neither have ever not answered any question that has been ask of them that I know of.

 

[bendingoak]

Art are you saying you crated the round hat box??????? Created all the different bow designs. I have seen most of them on vintage hats.

 

[danofarlington]

I wonder which hatmakers out there would be interested to contribute to a project of videos on "hatmaking." I have read that there are Hollywood production companies that might be interested to do that, a la "How Things Are Made," or whatever that show is on the History Channel.

 

[jamespowers]

This article being the basis for any suposition in the hat industry needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Paul's Hatworks was definitely a product of its surrounds at the time (San Francisco). The former owner had the place so full of dope smoke that you could come out of the shop like in a Cheech and Chong movie. That is why I gave him the name Bonghead. Anything he said is likely the result of a drug induced haze.
We all know that Kennedy was not he end of the hat industry or the hat wearing public. It slowly decreased to nothing after the first world war.
Expecting a hatter to give out proprietary information on hats or finishing hats is like expecting Coaca Cola to give you their recipe. It is a product just the same and what goes into it is what makes the finished product special.

 

[handlebar bart]

I have to say I have sat in a room with both Mike Moore and Art Fawcett [with Mike many times and with Art more than once] .. neither have ever not answered any question that has been ask of them that I know of.

This bears a repeat. Having spent time with Tony I will add him to your list Rusty. These guys love sharing what they know about making hats. Heck there are quite a few fellas who have hats made by themselves with the hands on help of Mike. I wanted to get my post in IBTPP.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Art are you saying you crated the round hat box??????? Created all the different bow designs. I have seen most of them on vintage hats.

John I didn't say that I crafted the round hat box nor did I say I crafted all different bow designs, just the ones you copy. Please, show me ONE vintage hat with the center stripe I pioneered.

 

[majormoore]

I have to agree 100% with Art, over the years ( 5) I have had several people email me to make them a hat, and they wanted the ribbon like Art's, I always siad NO, that the ribbon combo he does is his handy work and the FL is his home turf, and they would get pissed at me and not order the hat, then others would want me to sale some ribbon and they would want a small piece of a differant color to make the bow keeper, again my answer would be no, small color I would sale a yard or two. I buy a plain jane white hat box to ship my fedora hats in, the same one any one can buy at most hat shops, Art makes a killer hat box and I know it cost a huge bundle to make it and then to buy the min. each time when he needs more.

I look to Art as my peer and I think he to me as the same, he and I have traded a few facts with each other, I too have wasted alot of ribbon, hat bodies and labor teaching myself just want little I know now. It cost alot of money to really get into the hat making business, would I do it again, yes.

I mostly do westerns and they are pretty plain and simple, but my dress hats will also just be plain and simple , the reason is I do not want to be seen as copy Art's handy work. He worked hard and taught his self his wonderful handy work in ribbon treatment, Art and any other hatter can have a custom color done, we just have to buy 36 hats in that one color at one time, and just do the math and you can see it can add up to a large number, I have a custom color I use in my western hats , I have to buy 36 100X hat bodies at a time, to get that color.

Sorry to go on so long, but as far as Buckaroo Hatters goes, I will or at least to the best of me not copy Art's bow work.

Major Moore

 

[Mario]

The few questions I asked Art and Tony were readily answered - and I'm very grateful for their willingness to help.

 

[danofarlington]

Good thing you fellas make hats. You and the other handful out there give us a lot of excellent choices for custom hats. From TFL I get the impression that the United States is the only country out there with that cottage industry. Only Italy might rival it, but my impression is, probably not.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Good thing you fellas make hats. You and the other handful out there give us a lot of excellent choices for custom hats. From TFL I get the impression that the United States is the only country out there with that cottage industry. Only Italy might rival it, but my impression is, probably not.

Thank you Dan. In response to your previous post, I believe they have already done "How it's made" with Stetson. I never saw the episode but if I remember correctly some one here brought it up.

MajorMoore, Thank you. You can bet your last dollar there is mutual respect coming from here simply because you are a class act blazing your own trail.

 

[tonyb]

The one thing I really don't wish to do is deal in bad information. As I said earlier, I'm grateful for the knowledge more experienced hatters have passed along to me, especially considering how hard-won that knowledge may have been.

There are some ways I do things that might well be done better. I know enough to know that my basic aptitude is nothing special, so I don't discount the possibility that someone who knows next to nothing about hat making might see how I could do things differently, and better. I'm all ears.

 

[bendingoak]

Art, my boxes are nothing like yours. I don't use staples nor use tape to finish them off. They are finished with fabric. The boxes I use have been made before I was in the biz and they aren't made by the same people you use.

As for you stripe. I have seen it on other hats. I had a couple people ask me to do that and I try and make them happy. That's a total of three hats Art. I had no idea you had invented the the stipe but in all honesty. I have seen it on other hats. The bow I like to use most of all is a gentlemens bow with a half folded knot. Did you create that one as well?

Should I check in with every hatter to see if they have the claim on a bow design?

Someone recently copied my hat hook design for their own use as they said to me coping was a form of flattery. I don't know about that but what Im more concerned about in the biz and would hope you would be swell. Is a hatter blocking other from buying ribbon or keeping them from getting a source for panama bodies by telling lies about them. That's what I call back stabbing.