Judge Says Dancing Not Constitutional Right

[Dusty Rhodes]

:eusa_doh: Riiiiiiiiight .................................lol
Judge Says Dancing Not Constitutional Right

POSTED: 7:52 pm EDT April 3, 2006
UPDATED: 8:55 am EDT April 4, 2006

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NEW YORK -- Shall we dance? In New York it depends on where we hear the music.

A state judge on Monday dismissed a lawsuit that sought to force the city to allow private, social dancing in restaurants, clubs and bars.

State Supreme Court Justice Michael Stallman found that the city's license requirements for cabarets -- places that have food and drink and allow personal recreational dancing -- are constitutional.

A group calling itself the Gotham West Coast Swing Club and several people said that because the city's cabaret law barred them from dancing with other people it unconstitutionally infringed on their right of free expression.

The plaintiffs also contended that the city's application of zoning laws was arbitrary and capricious and deprived them of due process. They said they should be allowed to dance in any bar or restaurant they wanted to.

The judge disagreed. He said dancing is not constitutionally protected expression and the city has the right to regulate circumstances under which eating and drinking places can let patrons dance.

But he suggested the city should consider amending the 80-year-old Prohibition-era cabaret law in light of current social norms.

"Surely the Big Apple is big enough to find a way to let people dance," he said.

City law department spokeswoman Kate Ahlers said the judge's ruling was "a confirmation of the city's efforts to protect residential communities from disruptions attributed to some cabarets."

Norman Siegel, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, said he was disappointed by the decision and was considering an appeal.

"We continue to believe that social dancing is expressive activity and should have state constitutional protection," he said. "We continue to believe the cabaret law is unconstitutional."

Places that legally allowed couples to dance numbered around 1,000 in the 1960s, but fewer than 300 exist now, the plaintiffs said.

 

[mysterygal]

reminds me of the movie, 'foot loose'.....I wouldn't necessarily say dancing is a constitutional right.....it's for darn sure fun. I always thought the freedom of expression was pretty much just talking about speech

 

[Feraud]

While technically is it not a Constitutional Right to dance anytime, anywhere, I support the folks who want their dance halls.

Although the suit brought against the city was dismissed and the judge added

But he suggested the city should consider amending the 80-year-old Prohibition-era cabaret law in light of current social norms.

If you have ever lived on a street that has one or more bars, clubs, or dance halls you can identify with the the city's position stated here-

City law department spokeswoman Kate Ahlers said the judge's ruling was "a confirmation of the city's efforts to protect residential communities from disruptions attributed to some cabarets."

The residents have a valid concern about noise and trash that accompanies such places.

Both parties should not let this come to litigation and should work together to the satisfaction of all.

The flipside of this article can be the one where residents rent a home in a neighborhood and are unaware of the extreme late night noise pollution, trash, and loitering that occur in these areas. I read just this article a few months ago in a local newspaper. The realtors were quite deceptive in downplaying the extent of the problem that occurred in some neighborhoods.

 

[Tin Pan Sally]

 

[Burma Shave]

For starters...

...there is no such thing as a constitutional right to "expression." That's a modern bastardization of the document's recognition of the right to free speech. But the fact that it's not a constitutionally protected right doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. The Constitution (speaking specifically of the First Amendment) doesn't tell us what people can do: It lists only things that government can't do.

That aside, people should be able to dance where and when they like, especially in a privately owned location. However, the prohibition doesn't surprise me, nor should it surprise anyone else: That's what happens when we allow government to prohibit ANYTHING on private property. It should be up to the business owner and his or her patrons, not government, to decide what will be allowed.

 

[Senator Jack]

The cabaret law was revived by Giuliani so he could fine bars and then close them down when they couldn't pay those fines. It was part of his (successful) plan to make the city safer by making it infinitely duller. Bloomberg has carried it even further, seemingly intent on making the city as dull as he is.

Bring back my filthy, high-crime city. At least it was interesting.


Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Feraud]

That's what happens when we allow government to prohibit ANYTHING on private property. It should be up to the business owner and his or her patrons, not government, to decide what will be allowed.

I agree. This is not the government intruding on people's lives but the city. Many residents agree with the club closings. No one should want to restrict individuals choices. When the individual or property owner becomes a problem in the larger neighborhood (music, loitering, trash, etc.) eventually the city will get involved. Can place a partial blame on the clubs that do not police their patrons?

The cabaret law was revived by Giuliani so he could fine bars and then close them down when they couldn't pay those fines. It was part of his (successful) plan to make the city safer by making it infinitely duller. Bloomberg has carried it even further, seemingly intent on making the city as dull as he is.

Bring back my filthy, high-crime city. At least it was interesting.


Regards,

Senator Jack

I agree Guiliani and Bloomberg used the Cabaret Laws to make the city safer. Consequently it is a bit duller.
What was the alternative? Living in a filthy, high-crime city and not being allowed to protect yourself? Does anyone seriously want to live in a city like that? The ability of an honest citizen to own a firearm for protection is nil in NYC. We cannot play "Wild West" if we're not all allowed to have guns! lol If this is how we are going to play it, I say get rid of the porno shops, drug dealers, and associated "quality of life" crimes. No one will seriously lament the lack of hustlers on 42nd Street.

 

[Bebop]

The cabaret law was revived by Giuliani so he could fine bars and then close them down when they couldn't pay those fines. It was part of his (successful) plan to make the city safer by making it infinitely duller. Bloomberg has carried it even further, seemingly intent on making the city as dull as he is.

Bring back my filthy, high-crime city. At least it was interesting.


Regards,

Senator Jack

I agree with you. Filth and crime can be controled but trying to completely do away with them has alot of negative effects. Senator Jack deserves a promotion. Senator Jack for mayor of New York! A vote for him is a vote against dullness! :eusa_clap

 

[Senator Jack]

Thanks for the endorsement, Bebop. But which position is more profitably corruptible, Senator or Mayor?

42nd Street is the icon here. Yeah, it was disgusting before the 90s gentrification. No one can argue that. But it was interesting. At least it was a topic of conversation. If I wanted to live in a theme park, I'd move to Branson, MO. We weren't offered the choice of balance here; it was the conglomerates or nothing.

I suppose any argument is moot at this point, for the genie is not only out of the lamp but he's got his mouse ears on. Within a decade my once-great metropolis will be faceless and devoid of history. Farewell, old chum.


Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Bebop]

You are correct, Senator. Promotion may have been the wrong word to use.
I can't help but think of Las Vegas and what trying to make going to Vegas a "family outing" did to that once great oasis.

 

[MrBern]

Bring back my filthy, high-crime city. At least it was interesting.


Regards,

Senator Jack

Hmmm, it has been a while since anyone pointed a pistol at me. And Considering the poor girl who was abducted, raped & murdered after leaving a soho bar last month I really have no nostalgia for a high-crime city.
-bern (21 years working nites in times square)

 

[Hemingway Jones]

This case is not about freedom of expression; it's about zoning. There is nothing wrong with dancing in your living room; it seeks to prevent running a dance hall in a residential zone or running an underground club. Every municipality in this nation regulates zoning; some for comfort of life and others for planning growth.

I hope some of you haven't forgotten the mean streets of 1970s New York after the collapse of real estate values, or NYC during the crack epidemic of the 1980s, the car-jackings of the early 1990s. Time Square still has interesting shops and restaurants and more ecclectic places are located downtown. Times Square is now closer to what it was in the 1940s and what it was always meant to be: the great crossroads of America. It is safe once again for families and strolling.

I wouldn't romanticize pimps, drug addicts, and red light districts. These are tears in the fabric of a city, not part of its weave.

Samuel Johnson once said "Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London. No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford." The same can be said of New York.

 

[Burma Shave]

MrBern said:

"Considering the poor girl who was abducted, raped & murdered after leaving a soho bar last month I really have no nostalgia for a high-crime city."

That's understandable. But when you take away people's right and ability to protect themselves, criminals will prey on the weak and defenseless. As Feraud said higher up, "The ability of an honest citizen to own a firearm for protection is nil in NYC."

This may sound off-topic to some. But it comes down to the same thing: It's about prohibition, about limiting people's rights (constitutional or otherwise) to live life as they see fit, as long as they don't infringe on other people's rights. Gun ownership, dancing in "cabarets," smoking in a place of business and a host of other activities are simply not matters that should be regulated by law.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I wouldn't romanticize ... red light districts.

From the lyrics to the '30s song, "42nd Street":

"Naughty ladies,
from the eighties,
who are indiscreet ..."

.

 

[MudInYerEye]

I've worked security at NYC bars for ten years. I've always found having to tell people to cease their dancing a king-sized drag.

 

[John in Covina]

Dancing the night away!

I was wondering how patrons dancing at a bar or restaurant is the same as a cabaret? I thought a cabaret was a nightclub with all sorts of paid vaudville type acts and entertainment for the patrons. Patrons dancing are not a paid act to entertain other patrons, they probably paid a cover for the band. Cabaret workers are paid to entertain. It just doesn't seem to be the same thing at all.

Now what about dancing in a park? Can they fine you for that?

As to addressing neighborhood concerns. Out here, most neighborhoods do not want a strip club in their area, again late night noise, parking problems, crime, trash etc. What has happened is the strip clubs have gone to areas that are older business parks and warehouse districts. There the local town has less problems with the neighbors complaining about noise and such. The clean up and parking tends to be easier too. There is a question of hooliganism, when ever you have a bar, club or restaurant.

Again if you have every lived too close to a rowdy bar, it gets old fast.

 

[Senator Jack]

All right, so I'm hardboiled New Yorker who learned to watch his back as a kid. In high school during the 70s and through my East Village days of the 80s I had my fair share of scraps, none of which I will recall with fondness. But what I did use to love about New York was that it was filled with New Yorkers, and that the people who moved here came to be New Yorkers. If you wanted to be a laid back, flip-flop wearing fool, well, we had Los Angeles for that. If you wanted to be hardboiled, you came to New York.

These days, the immigrants (and I mean that as immigrants from other states) are the ones supporting the measures to turn this city into their hometown. They want Wal-Mart, and Starbucks, and they want to walk down sidewalks at the grand pace of a half-mile an hour. (Really, does anyone hustle any more?) They want to move to the 'hip' section of the city with its bars and restaurants but then they want quiet at 10 p.m. Guiliani sold out the soul of the city to give it to them.

The city has lost its edge, and that's what I miss. And yes, in a way I'm even nostalgic for that era of white flight when the city was abandoned. No one wants murder, robbery, and rape, but if the city is going to become as dull and homogenized as the rest of the country, what's to keep the natives here? Am I bitter? Yes. Certainly. I miss New York.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[John in Covina]

LA's Fool for the City.

If you wanted to be a laid back, flip-flop wearing fool, well, we had Los Angeles for that. Senator Jack

********
Who's fooling who here? The greatness of New York has in some ways lessened in others it retains it greatness, and in many things it grows and continues to grow. Things change, it is the rule of time that nothing escapes.

My last trips to NYC were minor disasters of people, places and things, but I never saw as great collection of dimwitted as those I had to deal with in NYC.

LA is laid back but it has it's frenetic centers too. LA has more than its share of adrenilin junkies and extreme sports lovers. LA has just about anything you could want, as long as you're willing to drive 45 minutes. LA is rarely claustraphobic. History, well it does go back to the 1700's. Classy eating spots? Tons! Cool clubs, yes. Fine shopping, actually many places from Rodeo Drive to down to Newport Beach. Some of the best hot dog places in the nation are here. Good pizza, real pizza can be found if you know where to look. Music, opera, stage shows, science, industry, commerce, the busiest port in the nation, and really astonishing terrain. Wineries, museums, custom manufacture, the Studios, wildlife, the Pacific Ocean. Cultures from all over the world, Route 66, Google architecture, good beer, baseball, basketball, and Hockey. At the same time we have gangs, and crime, but it is not in my face everyday. We have colonial history, civil war history, gold rush history and maritime history. Just up in Azusa canyon you can still find gold over the weekend. We have access to the desert for sight seeing, dirt bike riding and camping. Theres some really great parks inthe city and nearby. There are places that are the same as they were 60 or 70 years ago. It's the home of the french dip sandwhich. There's snow skiing and water skiing, and if the weather's right you can do both in the same day. LA is not populated by flip flop wearing fools, but you can be one if it's your ambition. LA is a city the offers a lot that is really good. It can be a lot of fun or as serious as cancer and you get to choose.

NYC is a city that no other city can be and to expect other cities to even try is not realistic. LA is not like any other city in the world, I have lived here for 24 years and every day something pops up about LA that I didn't know about, usually something really cool and very special.

NYC, I dread the next return, only because of those disasterous visits the last few times. Do I still LOVE New York, yes, because there were places there that were magical, and times I spent there were magical, mostly because the people I spent that time with were a big part of that magic. No place has cornered the market on magic yet, there's a lot of it to go around especially when you have friends.

If you want to put some place down, I suggest Portland or Seattle, both are home to the industrial trendy hip and the pretentiously unpretentious. But I don't mean that in a Bad way!

 

[Senator Jack]

Well it's an old, stale joke about NY but it happens to be true:

It's a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit.

Now I didn't mean to knock L.A., but one must admit that it is the sort of place where people go to fine restaurants in shorts and flip-flops. It's a casual town, which is great for L.A. But in the last ten years, that casualness has overtaken NY.

Certainly I am getting the business about this post, despite my reiteration that no one wants a high crime rate anywhere. I simply made a comment that when the residents had to be tough and aware to live here, the city was a much more interesting place. It had a gritty charm, and that's my NY. (Thanks to Marc for posting the 42nd Street lyric, proving my point that NY always had gritty charm.) My lament is that it has lost its charm, its edge, its soul. The crackdown on the Quality of Life crimes brought both good and bad to us. Yes, fewer squeegee men to hassle you at the streetlight. Yes, fewer gangs about the streets. But this turnaround in quality has been nothing but a grand case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The city became safer and the national chainstores got interested. Till the 90s, we didn't even have a K-Mart or Sears in the city. And now Wal-Mart is trying to get its everyday low-priced foot in here. If you think about it, for every Starbucks that is now in the city, at one time that space most likely held a real NY mom and pop store. Apart from the XXX theatres, Times Square was once filled with great little coffee shops and hamburger joints. There were pinball arcades and novelty shops ( and not just the adult kind) There even used to be a record store located in the Times Square subway station (who remembers that?) 95% of those shops got ousted when Guiliani sold the street to Disney.

If I sound like the lone nut here, then all can say is that I'm hearing this complaint from a lot of old metropolitans that are from every kind of background: lawyers, accountants, artists, cabdrivers, rich and poor. Some of us remember the vestiges of the golden era that were still around during our youth. We remember when the city not only had character but was inhabited by characters.

Poof. It's gone.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Burma Shave]

The Senator said...

..."But this turnaround in quality has been nothing but a grand case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Not such a bad thing, if it's Rosemary's Baby.