Japan Hunts Humpback Whales.

[Ben]

It's not a matter of populations being larger (though the populations are) so much as its a matter of most countries that allow hunting generally witnessing increasing populations over time while nations without organized safari industries (or more importantly those outright prohibiting hunting) have seen their populations decline without exception. Obviously, issues like climate, water, food, etc aren't going to have changed dramatically in the last three decades.

I think you are right that rate of change is important. What is the source on those numbers? They are very interesting.

I will take issue on the climate, etc. not having changes. There have been big changes in parts of Africa over the past few decades due to deforestation and the like.

But this thread is about whales, and I am just curious about your data. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[deanglen]

"Call me Ishmael..."



dean

 

[Emmababy]

aww thats a perfect end to the thread. Lock it.

 

[Smithy]

You stating that, without slaughtering the minke whale, the herring and cod would be depleted and "lead to the minke declining in numbers due to a lack of natural food resources for them", is so convoluted it is (almost) laughable. How humane! As if the natural world couldn't survive without the whalers killing - oh, excuse me , catching hundreds of minkes. The point is, that the IWC has placed a moratorium on commercial whaling and what Norway is doing is no different than what Japan is doing. Trying to capture the higher moral ground is disingenuous at best. As far as your question about me ever being in Norway, the answer is no, but I've been there in spirit with the ships and crew of the SEA SHEPARD CONSERVATION SOCIETY.

What's laughable is your knowledge of whale and fish stocks in Norwegian waters, and also Norwegian culture, history and attitudes to whales. I actually don't blame you as before moving to Norway I was one of those rabid anti-whaling armchair experts who thought they knew it all after reading an article in Time magazine and a Greenpeace brochure.

The big difference is if you have an ethical objection to whaling. Fair enough but that's your opinion. What's wrong is when people use the false "Norway's going to wipe out all the whales in the North Sea" as that is quite obviously rubbish. Personally I'm opposed to capital punishment but I certainly wouldn't tell a great number of Americans what's right and wrong and how to run their country. Like whaling that's a difference of ethical attitudes, a classic cultural relativist quandary.

 

[carebear]

Bald Eagles aren't endangered here, but they aren't really good for anything so only nitwits shoot them (illegally). When you see them in groups of 50 or so, each neck deep in a rotten salmon carcass, some of the "majesty" goes away. Lets see Franklin Mint make an inspiring statue out of that scene.

The "natural cycle" so revered by some is boom and bust, as populations of predators and prey interact in their environments. The best way to keep stable populations is to actively manage them, the best way to do that and make it pay for itself has always been hunting.

What is "good" for an entire species is often "bad" for an individual animal. So be it, I'm a conservationist, I want to keep those species around for my children to see, not get hung up on anthromorphizing each and every specific critter and thus doom the species.

As discussed, the managed and licensed killing of a single past-his-prime elephant bull by a hunter provides more funds to preserve habitat, pay for anti-poaching patrols and subsidize farmer's losses (preventing retaliatory killing) than camera tourism in its entirety.

The worst thing to happen to Africa's elephant populations (aside from the civil wars and uncontrolled poaching in the '60s and '70s by the "freedom fighters" for meat and ivory to sell) was the imposition of hunting bans due to outside pressures.

Unlike whales, which are a lot harder to poach (requiring large ships and technology to find them) it's a lot easier to kill an elephant and get away with it, whether it's an ivory poacher or an angry farmer. To protect them (and their habitat from them) takes money, the only realistic source for that money has been shown to be managed hunting.

In the absence of hunting fees you have poaching and government culls of entire herds (family groups mind you) of cows and calves. Explain to me how that is better and "more humane" than allowing a hunter to take the odd superfluous bull?


Whales are in a similar situation, their populations have recovered (or are recovering depending on the species) from the unregulated over-hunting of the past. Given the changes to their environment (the shared demand on the resources of the sea by humans, which isn't magically going away) they will eventually also need to be managed to maintain sustainable populations for the environment as it exists and changes. Once again, that's the conservationist (vice "environmentalist") position.

That's what the International Whaling Commission (note the term "whaling", that's "fishing" for whales) exists for. To manage the taking of whales, not eliminate it. As stocks grow and the evidence of recovery of various species becomes incontravertible, they will be forced to go from a "protection" into a "management" mode. If they fail to face up to that reality they will become irrelevent and individual nations will have to start managing by themselves again. I'd rather responsible resource managers, not emotion-driven anthromophizers, be in charge to prevent that happening or the whales will go the way of every other non-managed species, back to boom and bust and probable extinction.

 

[Camille]

Looking at foreign anti-norwegian-whaling sites, you only see what Norway kills, not that they're actually managing the whaling population to grow. The number of minke in norway has increased by almost 700 individuals the last 12 years.

Here's a interesting read: http://www.norway.org.uk/policy/environment/whaling/whaling.htm

(And hey, I'm a vegetarian who's a Greenpeace-member, hence an environmentalist. I just think there's more sides to hunting than one.)

 

[eightbore]

Ben,

I don't think climate change is nearly the influence that say something like political strife would be upon wildlife populations...especially in Africa. One could deforest half of southern Sudan for instance and not have the impact that the military conflict has had there. Further, a certain amount of deforestation, of the creation of a more mixed habitat, might actually benefit most species. Pretty much every species in Zimbabwe for instance has been sad to see widespread farming of tobacco, corn, and oranges decline there. We used to see dozens of kudu nightly in the rows of tobacco getting their daily fix. There are also places in Canada where controlled burns take place to provide a bit more grassland for Bison while not really impacting the viability of the local moose of elk populations. The above elephant data was compiled from...

IUCN, African Elephant Status Report 2007, http://www.iucn.org

...among other sources.

Best,

eightbore

 

[LocktownDog]

"Call me Ishmael..."

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap I fear this thread will degenerate into Ahab-ian lunacy ere long.

Richard

 

[dr greg]

quite possibly

There is even a white whale to go with it, an albino humpback has made regular visits along the coast here; it's been named Migaloo
http://www.migaloowhale.org/
and is adored by schoolchildren and whalewatchers of all kinds. There is real concern that the Japanese will go after it if they see it to prove a point, and I can assure you that if they succeed, relations between the two countries will be under considerable strain.

 

[HadleyH]

There is even a white whale to go with it, an albino humpback has made regular visits along the coast here; it's been named Migaloo
http://www.migaloowhale.org/
and is adored by schoolchildren and whalewatchers of all kinds. There is real concern that the Japanese will go after it if they see it to prove a point, and I can assure you that if they succeed, relations between the two countries will be under considerable strain.

Migaloo - You are too beautiful for words!!! :eusa_clap

Do you think Migaloo will visit Sydney by any chance? I'd be the first one to say hello!

 

[carebear]

Well I hope Migaloo's left alone as well.

Like white moose and bison, or blue-phase "glacier" black bears, some things are just neat to have wandering around.

Ironically, game management is the best way to do that.

 

[scotrace]

Homo sapiens is rather good at managing his surrounds. Particularly when it comes to the sea.

 

[Smithy]

Homo sapiens is rather good at managing his surrounds. Particularly when it comes to the sea.

Scotrace, humanity is responsible for many ecological disasters both in the sea and on land. I personally am pleased that you brought this topic up, although it demonstrates huge differences in understanding and our individual beliefs.

I'd imagine that most here, and actually including those who "support" some forms of whaling, are not happy with the Japanese attitudes to whaling and their practices regarding it. Some here have stated there is no difference between what the Japanese are doing and what other whaling nations are doing, I should hope that people here are well read enough to know that this is not the case. It often seems that those who are ethically opposed to whaling in any form, use untruths and suspect propaganda to make their cases. One member here stated...

The Norwegian Pirate Whaling Fleet

In April of 2005, the Norwegians sent out 30 harpoon boats out to slaughter 797 minke whales.

Norway kills almost 800 minke whales each year.

Norway's activities are in direct violation of the moratorium established by the International Whaling Association (IWC) in 1986 that prohibits commercial whaling activities...

...Norway has engaged in illegal killing of whales since 1986. That is the year that the IWC invoked a global moratorium on commercial whaling.

Now anyone who knows anything about the IWC and the laws regarding it should know that...

"Norway’s legal right to hunt minke whales is not disputed, as Norway reserved its position on the temporary moratorium when it was adopted by the IWC. This reservation was made pursuant to Article V of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, the agreement on which the establishment and activities of the IWC are based. The moratorium is not legally binding on any member country today, as the Commission has not been willing to carry out the scientifically-based assessment that was a condition of continuing the moratorium beyond 1990."

Thus talk about "pirate fleets" and "illegal killing" is complete bollocks. Not by Norway's definition but by the laws and rules that govern the IWC.

I can understand that some people are opposed to any killing of whales from an ethical and moral standpoint, and that is their right, but to use lies and untruths to try and reinforce their position is wrong.

But once again Scotrace thanks for bringing it up, it's a tough and divisive topic, but I applaud those who have been able to talk about it with level heads and courtesy.

 

[carebear]

Homo sapiens is rather good at managing his surrounds. Particularly when it comes to the sea.

We come up with an idea that many scientists and experts think sound at the time, it turns out to fail, so we learn from it, expend the resources necessary to fix the problem and move on.

That's not an indictment of attempting to do good, that's an example of improving over time.

The problem comes when policies and strategies are demonstrated (scientifically) over and over to fail and yet due to emotionalism we continue using them.

 

[scotrace]

I have been reading up on whale species. Really fascinating.

Their intelligence is astonishing - but get this: Orcas (not a whale species) used to help on whaling expeditions. They would signal to shore with their flukes to alert the whalers of the presence of a whale species they knew was hunted. They helped to corral and kill the hunted whale, and then assisted by pulling the tow ropes! Surviving skeletons show the extreme wear on their teeth of the slipping ropes.

 

[Zemke Fan]

This is a subject I know a little too much about...

How many of you know, for example, that:

In the United States whaling is carried out by Alaska Natives from nine different communities in Alaska. The whaling program is managed by the Alaska Eskimo Whaling Commission which reports to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The hunt takes around 50 bowhead whales a year from a population of about 8,000 in Alaskan waters. Anti-whaling groups portray this hunt is unsustainable, though the IWC Scientific Committee, the same group that provided the above population estimate, projects a population growth of 3.2% per year.

This is called subsistence whaling and it is, of course, different from commerical whaling. Nonetheless, to many people, a whale is a whale...

 

[Ben]

What's laughable is your knowledge of whale and fish stocks in Norwegian waters, and also Norwegian culture, history and attitudes to whales. I actually don't blame you as before moving to Norway I was one of those rabid anti-whaling armchair experts who thought they knew it all after reading an article in Time magazine and a Greenpeace brochure.

I am not sure about whale stocks in Norwegian waters, but I understand that fish stocks are under pressure.

According to the book, The End of the Line, by Charles Clover:

"The total quota agreed by Norway and Russia in 2003 was about 440,000 tons, but one should remember that the Barets Sea used to produce catches of 900,000 tons a year in the 1970s. Lately stocks are down, but not as low as they were in the mid-1980s, when catastrophe was only narrowly averted. "In 1986 and 1987, thanks to the overfishing of capelin for fish-meal for Norway's salmon farms, the cod suffered a food crisis and cannibalised their young."

Commercial fishing is an excellent example of the need to manage resources carefully and to occasionally take lower profits and ignore traditions for a few years while fish stocks recover.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Whew! No doubt all the wolves, moose, elk, whales, elephants etc are grateful that God put mankind on this earth to manage their populations for them. If it wasn't for human intervention, the balance of the natural world would all be messed up. Wow, aren't we a useful species? I shudder to think what it would be like were we not here.

 

[Smithy]

I am not sure about whale stocks in Norwegian waters, but I understand that fish stocks are under pressure.

According to the book, The End of the Line, by Charles Clover:

"The total quota agreed by Norway and Russia in 2003 was about 440,000 tons, but one should remember that the Barets Sea used to produce catches of 900,000 tons a year in the 1970s. Lately stocks are down, but not as low as they were in the mid-1980s, when catastrophe was only narrowly averted. "In 1986 and 1987, thanks to the overfishing of capelin for fish-meal for Norway's salmon farms, the cod suffered a food crisis and cannibalised their young."

Commercial fishing is an excellent example of the need to manage resources carefully and to occasionally take lower profits and ignore traditions for a few years while fish stocks recover.

The problem Ben, is that cod have been over fished by nations throughout the northern Atlantic and her connected seas for many years now. All the nations of the North and Baltic Seas have pillaged cod stocks for the last few decades or so, and understandably cod stocks are hugely down. The best we can hope for is a managed approach to cod fishery in order to raise the levels in these areas.

Whew! No doubt all the wolves, moose, elk, whales, elephants etc are grateful that God put mankind on this earth to manage their populations for them. If it wasn't for human intervention, the balance of the natural world would all be messed up. Wow, aren't we a useful species? I shudder to think what it would be like were we not here.

Actually elk are doing remarkably well here Benny, if you ever make it up this way I'd be more than happy to take you out into the countryside to see them. Failing that I'll buy you a schooner in Sydney next time I'm down that way

 

[Benny Holiday]

Ha ha! Smithy, I should have realised that being originally from NZ you'd get my skewed Aussie version of humour! Mate, I would love to get myself over there one day! And we're definitely on for a drink or three next time you're in port.