It`s all been done before.

[carter]

collegiate/varsity/country styles

...now I'm more interested in the collegiate/varsity/country styles that can be dressy and be classy but can also double as workwear, which this forum is less interested in, hence my limited participation here now and larger interest in Rugby and the styles that inspired it.

Ray, I believe that you are uniquely qualified to start a thread and provide content on this very subject. I believe there would be a great deal of interest. I find it very difficult to find many examples of vintage 40's or even 50's varsity and collegiate styles.

Would you consider doing this?

 

[Mr. Rover]

In Gratitude To Ralph Lauren And A Manifesto for Progress with Regards to History

You sound like a good egg, Ray. Best of luck to you.

I'm very flattered- thank you.

To make a slight addition, in regards to Ralph Lauren, I'm not patronizing his brand in any way- I admire him greatly as a man, a personality, a visionary, and clearly as a designer, and am proud to be a part of his company, which at times feels like a team or a family. One of my former employers and now a personal friend was one of the first people to interview Ralph back in the early 70s and has said that he is still probably the most charming man she has ever met, and knows sooo much. He could give anyone here who fancies himself a vintage aficionado or militaria enthusiast a run for their money in sheer encyclopedic knowledge.

But because of the size of his "empire" now and its establishment in American culture and association with wealth, it has attracted some lesser people with less...pure...intent and purpose than him. I feel like Lauren's vision for his company was something honest and pure, and over the last 40 years, has become dirtied and corrupted- whether that is capitalism, pride, elitism, snobbiness...I can't say. For people like us, Ralph's vision is still based in old films, F. Scott Fitzgerald, adventures in exotic lands, and classic timeless style. But to the public consciousness and most people, it has lost that meaning and is now just a symbol of conspicuous consumption...I am curious as to who decided to design the Big Pony polo shirt. It took a man's signature of design on a simple, well-made shirt and blew it into a blatant in-your-face exhibition of how big your bank account is.

I grew up in a town that felt like the quintessential Ralph Lauren prep town, and not ironically and IMHO, has one of the best RL stores in the tristate area besides the Polo Mansion in Manhattan. But I hated it. I never wore Ralph Lauren...I never wanted to dress like the people there. I had one dress shirt (blue oxford button down from Brooks Bros). I didn't even own a polo shirt until I was 14.

It wasn't even until I left this town that I delved into vintage and classic American clothing. And this is because I associated Ralph Lauren so much with the preppy, snobby, bratty, boring rich kids that I hated so much. There is a romanticism and aspiration about Ralph's dream that comes across in his advertising and clothes that just isn't the case in real life, at least not in my experience.
Maybe that's the case with a lot of dream lifestyles....I have a friend who romanticized about the west through Sam Shepherd plays and western films...he went out to work on a ranch all summer and found out, it ain't as much fun as in the movies.


Anyway, that is probably why I am less interested in associating myself with Polo RL compared to Rugby, because I was still selling clothes to the people that I disliked all my life at Polo. That is RL's niche now and who they market to, and we give them what they want. But there, I feel like, as the subject says, "It's all been done before".

But with Rugby, there is youth and discovery, as well as raw interest and exploration that is unique to that brand that captures what I imagine what being at Ralph Lauren must've been like 40, or even 20 or 30 years ago. There is still a clubbiness about Rugby, where it is unknown and exclusive in that way, so that when I see someone wearing Rugby or vintage hats or a vintage suit on the street here in NY, and think, "This is someone in the know. This is someone interesting and worth knowing."
And I imagine that is something people who participate in this lifestyle also associate with. I bumped into Andre "3000" Benjamin at a drugstore the other day. We were both wearing very large newsboy caps... and we looked at each other, smiled, and started talking. That is the part of the appeal of being a vintage aficionado that is no longer a part of Polo Ralph Lauren because it is just sooooooooo huge and widespread. Which for Ralph and the company, is great...but that doesn't do anything for the unique and interesting people in groups like this one.
We have our iconography and what we associate with it. Who are our icons? Bogart, Jones, Cary Grant, Fred Astaire, Esquire, Apparel Arts. Ralph Lauren is now one of these icons, and while I feel like he should be considered amongst these stars, his Polo, Black Label, and Purple Label brands, while still carrying something essentially old world that we like, have grown beyond his own personality and have been steered in other directions by the corporation and its shareholders and the people who spend the most money there.


P.S. sorry about the long-winded rant and somewhat hijacking this thread...this is a conversation I've had with MrBern many times and thought I'd get it off my chest.

I just watched this interview with Ralph Lauren from the 90s. It's an hour long, but is really fascinating.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HO5Uk-TejS8

 

[bburtner@moran]

Your thoughts on an older guys thread.

I was not going to come back to the Lounge,but I could not resist with out saying that everyone here seems to be well educated.Be it any subject related to a by gone era,grammer,politics etc.I respect all of your opinions on my thread.It was never intended to upset you good people.I have been around the block so to speak many times.Started my flavor for the older "stuff" (what else can I call it),when I was about 7 or 8yrs old.I lived in a 156yr old house with old Indian motorcycles around,a full wood shop in the basement,my dad`s hobby was joinery and bringing home just about anything that was worth saving.My passion for the so called vintage quality increased the older I got,trips to NYC`s pawn shops during the 60`s Kaufmans surplus store sold minty B3 jackets for 75 bucks!Back then you could really have a time down at W Broadway by Greene St.Old clothing shops littered with leathers from the 20s to the 50s a GOLD mine!I will continue to express my opioins on anything but will not be so rough around the edges( that has come from my younger days working on the waterfront and weened by WW2 vets who taught me the "tugboat business where I still work.I could go on but I will stop it`s 0:800 time to make some calls.Thanks folks...............

 

[Feraud]

I was not going to come back to the Lounge,but I could not resist with out saying that everyone here seems to be well educated.Be it any subject related to a by gone era,grammer,politics etc.I respect all of your opinions on my thread.It was never intended to upset you good people.I have been around the block so to speak many times.Started my flavor for the older "stuff" (what else can I call it),when I was about 7 or 8yrs old.I lived in a 156yr old house with old Indian motorcycles around,a full wood shop in the basement,my dad`s hobby was joinery and bringing home just about anything that was worth saving.My passion for the so called vintage quality increased the older I got,trips to NYC`s pawn shops during the 60`s Kaufmans surplus store sold minty B3 jackets for 75 bucks!Back then you could really have a time down at W Broadway by Greene St.Old clothing shops littered with leathers from the 20s to the 50s a GOLD mine!I will continue to express my opioins on anything but will not be so rough around the edges( that has come from my younger days working on the waterfront and weened by WW2 vets who taught me the "tugboat business where I still work.I could go on but I will stop it`s 0:800 time to make some calls.Thanks folks...............

I am very glad to read you are back bburner. Contrary to a lone opinion, your comments are very welcome here.
I look forward to reading about your experiences in the field.

 

[bburtner@moran]

Thanks

Thanks Feraud.I do enjoy the lounge.I see your picture with a guitar,do you play? I have been a picker for 40 yrs.Blues to start,now it`s flat pickin and cross pickin,bluegrass,celtic influence stuff,keeps me sane.Brian

 

[Feraud]

What I do can barely be called "playing". lol I am a slightly better drummer.

 

[bburtner@moran]

Great

Keep at it brother it`s a good outlet.

 

[celtic]

i know that I am interested in hearing more from bburtner, be it good, bad or otherwise.

i also don't spend a lot for clothing, be it vintage or otherwise. i just don't have the scratch to begin with.

i generally don't post much here because i don't own a lot of vintage or high-end items like most folks here. i buy an item here and there when i can.

i do own 2 vintage schott jackets that i paid a good dollar (at least to ME) for and also bought a beautiful (to me) B3 off of ebay...i was excited at the good deal and wonderful coat i own....BUT then i found out on this forum that the brand i got wasn't considered a good one...(Top Gun). Well, it might not be a perfect recreation or the cream of the crop, but i think it looks great.

but i wouldn't bother posting it here when people here are talking about dropping thousands of euros having them custom made from the skins of 150 year old red pandas with black unicorn fur lining made by a 152 year old tibeten monk smoking white lebonese poppy whilst drinking powdered tea made from white buffalo testicles.



but i digress.

i understand how the original poster feels somewhat, although i definitely don't have his knowledge or experience as i'm new to this 'game'.

just wanted to add a different perspective.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

but i wouldn't bother posting it here when people here are talking about dropping thousands of euros having them custom made from the skins of 150 year old red pandas with black unicorn fur lining made by a 152 year old tibeten monk smoking white lebonese poppy whilst drinking powdered tea made from white buffalo testicles.

This made me laugh.

And besides the -outerwear- area which does tend to be more about -custom- work.

There are a zillion threads here about 'bargains' and thrift store finds...and every other manner of 'how to look good for cheap'. A place where a suit from Target gets just as much admiration as one from a custom tailor....if you will.

This is -not- an exclusively 'custom work' sort of place. By any stretch of even the most -rich- and able to afford such things' imagination. Even those folks (although I admit I don't know who they are, because they certainly aren't here bragging about their means, which means none of you know who they are either...to be honest)

Most of us -love- the hunt of finding things on the cheap.....etc.

and while yes, there is a focus on Quality in all things, I do not think discussing quality items..means we are all out buying them all the time.

Seriously....go look....the amount of space here devoted to "I found this great deal'...seriously outweighs the 'dude I paid a lot for this'.

 

[bburtner@moran]

If you satisfied

Celtic: If your satisfied then that`s all that matter`s you scored a nice piece at the right price for you! We all can nit pick these repro jackets to death,I quess If you have the scatch then an original is the way to go.I dont.Years ago in the 60`s you could get a minty B3 at Kaufmans surplus in NYC for about 75 bucks,but that was a lot for 17yr old kid at the time.Its all relative I am told here.Brian

 

[carter]

I LIKE your perspective!

i know that I am interested in hearing more from bburtner, be it good, bad or otherwise.

i also don't spend a lot for clothing, be it vintage or otherwise. i just don't have the scratch to begin with.

i generally don't post much here because i don't own a lot of vintage or high-end items like most folks here. i buy an item here and there when i can.

i do own 2 vintage schott jackets that i paid a good dollar (at least to ME) for and also bought a beautiful (to me) B3 off of ebay...i was excited at the good deal and wonderful coat i own....BUT then i found out on this forum that the brand i got wasn't considered a good one...(Top Gun). Well, it might not be a perfect recreation or the cream of the crop, but i think it looks great.

but i wouldn't bother posting it here when people here are talking about dropping thousands of euros having them custom made from the skins of 150 year old red pandas with black unicorn fur lining made by a 152 year old tibeten monk smoking white lebonese poppy whilst drinking powdered tea made from white buffalo testicles.

but i digress.

i understand how the original poster feels somewhat, although i definitely don't have his knowledge or experience as i'm new to this 'game'.

just wanted to add a different perspective.

lol lol lol lol lol

I may want one of those. Can you tell us the vintage?

Celtic, you are a funny man. Thanks for the smile. Carter

 

[Creeping Past]

bburtner, now you're on to something, mentioning how you grew up. I think how you get introduced to ideas and things influences how you come to feel about them -- and leave them behind when the time's right.

I got interested in old stuff in general through my grandad, who was a joiner and cabinet maker. He always had loads of old things lying around, just in case they came in useful. Also, he made useful things from scratch and that caught my attention.

I was often the youngest among groups of people, which meant I had to learn fast or keep quiet.

Also, I'm self-taught to a large extent, in respect of guitar playing and other things.

Perhaps it's thinking about how you've taught yourself and got all you can out of collecting certain things that has led to your sensing a great distance between yourself and your experience. I sometimes get that feeling when I listen to 'new' bands playing their little songs, although I've only been playing guitar for 26 years.

Being a flatpicker, are you a Clarence White or a Doc Watson?

 

[bburtner@moran]

Clarence White

He was the Master that`s only my opinion.Shame that we lost him and many other great players.Waiting for Mayall to come to the US.

 

[celtic]

Miss Neecerie - i found this forum originally when i was looking for b-3s online... most of the time i spend here is in the outerwear and hat sections, which it seems MANY posts are about custom or high-dollar finds. i HAVE seen many posts about steals-and-deals, so i know they exist...but perhaps many more are in areas that i don't frequent. please don't think i was slamming the idea of buying the best that you want or can afford...i am NOT. i think it's admirable that folks strive for perfection. i was just trying to offer a different perspective and also a bit of levity.

bburtner@moran - there are only 2 places left locally to buy surplus. both now only carry about 1-2 racks and the rest of the store is new..imported junk. but yes, i do love my b-3 and i don't give a rat's aspiration that it's not a good reproduction or has a 'gaudy' pinup inside the liner..in fact, i think it's cool as all get-out.

Carter - I can't find the tag, but the chap who i bought it from said he wrestled Ernest Hemingway to get it. He also likes bacon sandwiches and drinks absinthe mixed with Tang. By the way, i wouldn't feed the jacket after midnight or get it wet...it'll ruin your christmas vacation. :rage:

 

[Dr Doran]

Yes, I find plenty of threads here on cheap vintage, and that draws me to this place as well. I agree that some of the threads here can be obscure, on recondite matters and drawing out distinctions that matter very little to me; but there needs to be a place for people interested in that sort of thing, and this is it.

The forum that seems to devote itself much more exclusively to high-end custom-made apparel is the London Lounge, I think. I've seen some hair-raising commentary there. I've never had anything directed at me, but some of the things posted there would probably earn a punch in the mouth if they were ever directed at me by a living person.

I have been there a few times. It makes the Fedora Lounge look very down-home, not snobby at all, friendly, nice, full'a cheap-livin' folks.

There is also a great deal of glorification of expensiveness on Ask Andy About Clothes. And "attitude" as well.

This place ain't so bad.

 

[bburtner@moran]

Lurking out there

Celtic: Lurking out there somewhere is an unworn B3,A2,55J14,pre war Martin D18( the holy grail for a picker like me) they just have not surfaced,hopefully not into someone elses hands.HA HA.I keep my hopes up and a keen eye.You never know.BB

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Miss Neecerie - i found this forum originally when i was looking for b-3s online... most of the time i spend here is in the outerwear and hat sections, which it seems MANY posts are about custom or high-dollar finds. i HAVE seen many posts about steals-and-deals, so i know they exist...but perhaps many more are in areas that i don't frequent. please don't think i was slamming the idea of buying the best that you want or can afford...i am NOT. i think it's admirable that folks strive for perfection. i was just trying to offer a different perspective and also a bit of levity.

Oh I understand. I was just pointing out that Outerwear is perhaps the one area with that -built- for me as a standard....

Taking the Lounge as whole....its not that at all...

See...more proof people need to venture out of 'their room' a bit more and meet and see the rest of the Lounge. Reading rooms that -don't- initially interest me...is how I learn about all this stuff.

Come on in...the water's fine!

 

[bburtner@moran]

Most Correct

Yes understood greatly,Much appreciated also.

 

[reetpleat]

Miss Neecerie - i found this forum originally when i was looking for b-3s online... most of the time i spend here is in the outerwear and hat sections, which it seems MANY posts are about custom or high-dollar finds. i HAVE seen many posts about steals-and-deals, so i know they exist...but perhaps many more are in areas that i don't frequent. please don't think i was slamming the idea of buying the best that you want or can afford...i am NOT. i think it's admirable that folks strive for perfection. i was just trying to offer a different perspective and also a bit of levity.

bburtner@moran - there are only 2 places left locally to buy surplus. both now only carry about 1-2 racks and the rest of the store is new..imported junk. but yes, i do love my b-3 and i don't give a rat's aspiration that it's not a good reproduction or has a 'gaudy' pinup inside the liner..in fact, i think it's cool as all get-out.

Carter - I can't find the tag, but the chap who i bought it from said he wrestled Ernest Hemingway to get it. He also likes bacon sandwiches and drinks absinthe mixed with Tang. By the way, i wouldn't feed the jacket after midnight or get it wet...it'll ruin your christmas vacation. :rage:

Well, you are certainly a welcome addition to the lounge. and if your jacket makes you happy, then great. In fact, if you post a picture of you looking cool in it, you will likely get some compliments.

but this is a forum of real afficionados of originals and fine replicas, so do not expect a lot of people to spend a lot of time talking about nice, but not high quality replicas. And do not expect those devoted to sussing out the minute details if an original or repro to not notice that something is not up to par in the reproduction department. many people come here for the info on who makes the best replicas, and those are, by nature, expensive.

There is no snobbery involved. Just a real interest in good reproductions nad originals.

On the other hand, if you look in the suits where used vintage suits are cheper and easy to come by at thrift stores (well, compared to original wwII jackets anyway) you will find many people celebrating their bargains, as much as you will those drooling over custom tailored replicas.

Overall, you will find little snobbery here. But you will find exacting minds discussing the best reproductions and their opinions of them.