Marc Chevalier
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I agree. In fact, my opposition to the current presidential administration stems from my patriotism.
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Is it okay to be patriotic?
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Girl Friday
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I think this is a "know your audience" kind of thing.
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Of course it is okay to be patriotic, to love one's country. What he may have meant by that question is, "is it okay to love one's country despite the poor decisions of its leaders?" The answer is "yes." I, for one, don't agree with a lot of what is being done (and has been done in the past) by those in power, but I still love the principles this country was founded on, its citizens and other residents, its geography, and the structure of its government, if not the individuals who have filled that structure.
As to others being patriotic: that is their choice. I can't see asking anyone to leave if that person doesn't love our country. We need room for dissent, and an opportunity to have our beliefs challenged and questioned.
As to others being patriotic: that is their choice. I can't see asking anyone to leave if that person doesn't love our country. We need room for dissent, and an opportunity to have our beliefs challenged and questioned.
ortega76
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Blind patriotism is unacceptable. I hate people that are ignorant of the issues facing this country, are too lazy to vote yet shout down protestors or those who don't agree with them. I am patriotic. I love this country, I love its people. Do I think some of our leaders don't have our best interests at heart? Yeah, but that's not the point. I am patriot because I believe in making this country great and striving to help my fellow Americans if I can.
What do I mean by blind patriotism? Not to delve too deep here, but a neighbor once asked me if I supported the "War In Iraq" and I indicated that I do not support the US presence in that country. I was subjected to a diatribe about not supporting "our troops" and yadda-yadda. Yet, as I pointed out, I give financially to the USO and send care packages to service men and women in the field (I joined a local tattoo and piercing parlor in sending regular letters, books, supplies, cigars, whatever to some local soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan). I also am a registered voter and he hadn't voted in over 10 years. This person was unable to see my patriotism despite our differences in opinion.
What do I mean by blind patriotism? Not to delve too deep here, but a neighbor once asked me if I supported the "War In Iraq" and I indicated that I do not support the US presence in that country. I was subjected to a diatribe about not supporting "our troops" and yadda-yadda. Yet, as I pointed out, I give financially to the USO and send care packages to service men and women in the field (I joined a local tattoo and piercing parlor in sending regular letters, books, supplies, cigars, whatever to some local soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan). I also am a registered voter and he hadn't voted in over 10 years. This person was unable to see my patriotism despite our differences in opinion.
Pilgrim
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Following up on Dixon and Lizzie's comments, let me once again offer the extremely pertinent comments of Theodore Roosevelt:
The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
It amazes me when people are unable to distinguish criticism of a President or other official from criticism of our country - or of any country. Life is not so simplistic. In the U.S., one can be a strong patriot while objecting to the policies and/or actions of an elected official. One can be a patriot while arguing over the meaning of phrases in the constitution; or while arguing pro or con legal decisions of local, state or federal courts.
In my opinion, the very fabric of life in the U.S. depends on dialog, building mutual understanding and compromise. It is not built upon the actions of secret courts, secret prison camps, classified testimony that is not revealed to the accused, holding civilians from other countries incommunicado for four-plus years while failing to accuse them of a crime, or arresting our own citizens for classified reasons and making it illegal for them to tell others why they have been arrested. For these and many other reasons, I look forward to changes in the course of governance in the U.S., as I think great damage has been done to our society by zealotry in the current administration. But I also recognize that it's up to the people to decide! Many will not agree with me.
Here is a quote that sums up the dilemma we face today:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
It amazes me when people are unable to distinguish criticism of a President or other official from criticism of our country - or of any country. Life is not so simplistic. In the U.S., one can be a strong patriot while objecting to the policies and/or actions of an elected official. One can be a patriot while arguing over the meaning of phrases in the constitution; or while arguing pro or con legal decisions of local, state or federal courts.
In my opinion, the very fabric of life in the U.S. depends on dialog, building mutual understanding and compromise. It is not built upon the actions of secret courts, secret prison camps, classified testimony that is not revealed to the accused, holding civilians from other countries incommunicado for four-plus years while failing to accuse them of a crime, or arresting our own citizens for classified reasons and making it illegal for them to tell others why they have been arrested. For these and many other reasons, I look forward to changes in the course of governance in the U.S., as I think great damage has been done to our society by zealotry in the current administration. But I also recognize that it's up to the people to decide! Many will not agree with me.
Here is a quote that sums up the dilemma we face today:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
Marc Chevalier
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Yes.
To me, supporting the troops doesn't mean being in favor of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. To me, it means being in favor of:
1.) Equipping our troops with, among other things, the best armor, artillery, food, lodgings, sanitation and medical care possible. Read John Crawford's book, The Last True Story I'll Ever Tell: An Accidental Soldier's Account of the War in Iraq.
2.) Doing everything in our power to help create an Iraq stable enough for our troops to get the heck out of there. Prolonging a war doesn't support the troops; it puts them in front of more bullets.
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To me, supporting the troops doesn't mean being in favor of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. To me, it means being in favor of:
1.) Equipping our troops with, among other things, the best armor, artillery, food, lodgings, sanitation and medical care possible. Read John Crawford's book, The Last True Story I'll Ever Tell: An Accidental Soldier's Account of the War in Iraq.
2.) Doing everything in our power to help create an Iraq stable enough for our troops to get the heck out of there. Prolonging a war doesn't support the troops; it puts them in front of more bullets.
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Air Boss
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So arguing that the use of torture is necessary to defend our liberty is not a vice? This from a man who had more important things to do then serve his nation during Vietnam. I agree with Dixon that we live in an age of pseudo-patriotism but I disagree with Sen. Goldwater. We can go to far in our defense of liberty.
Dixon Cannon said:
Phil
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Now now, let's not get into who did or didn't serve in said wars. No offence towards either of you, I just feel that that could go to a very bad place.
Anywho, just to clarify, I was speaking of moderate patriotism. I don't believe in shoving red, white, and blue down peoples' throats. But I do think that support for our country should be shown with pride.
Anywho, just to clarify, I was speaking of moderate patriotism. I don't believe in shoving red, white, and blue down peoples' throats. But I do think that support for our country should be shown with pride.
Air Boss
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Looks like I did a bad job of making my point. I believe we can go overboard in our defense of liberty and used torture as an example of going to far. I had written a somewhat longer, more detailed response but my ISP decided to drop me (argh).
I'm reminded of Toni (or was it Tori) Smith, the female college basketball player that would purposely turn away from the flag before games as a way to protest the war in Iraq. The media went nuts with much howling on both sides. While I find her behavior childish and petty, I will defnd her right to be childish and petty. I guess it's one of the downsides of a free society - it's difficult to legislate good manners.
I'm reminded of Toni (or was it Tori) Smith, the female college basketball player that would purposely turn away from the flag before games as a way to protest the war in Iraq. The media went nuts with much howling on both sides. While I find her behavior childish and petty, I will defnd her right to be childish and petty. I guess it's one of the downsides of a free society - it's difficult to legislate good manners.
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Strider said:
EL COLORADO
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Phil said:
Phil said:
That doesnt sound like patriotism. That just sounds like ignorance.
Now this is a patriot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE58Y2LETAs
Dixon Cannon
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I like Ike!
These are words to live by. Unfortunately many people, not only don't understand them, they don't remember that they were ever uttered! Ike knew - we've forgotten!
-dixon cannon
EL COLORADO said:
These are words to live by. Unfortunately many people, not only don't understand them, they don't remember that they were ever uttered! Ike knew - we've forgotten!
-dixon cannon
Personally, I'm getting tired of patriotism. These days, the word just doesn't seem to mean what it meant decades ago. Today it seems more like it means blind loyalism or nationalism rather than what real patriotism is. That stuff I can do without.
Pilgrim
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Strider said:
That's exactly the problem I referred to earlier. "Patriotism" is all too often used as shorthand for "Blindly rubberstamping anything the current administration wants to do."
That IS NOT, and NEVER HAS BEEN, patriotism. That's a big reason that I quoted Roosevelt earlier. He summed it up nicely.
The Mad Hatter
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My take on this is difficult to articulate in a manner that others will understand because I believe that the nation-state ( of which the United States happens to be one ) is becoming outmoded.
My reasons are complex. In a nutshell, in today's world due to globalization, the environment, and other items, the nation-state is either too small to handle the big issues or too big to handle the little ones. To me, it is not merely a question of whether being patriotic is morally good or bad; but - more bluntly - does patriotism enable one to put one's eggs in the right basket given the realities of today's world?
Another problem is that guerilla warfare is establishing itself as a very effective counter to Western conventional warfare. Hezbollah's success against Israel in Lebanon is but the latest episode. A lot of this "support the troops" rhetoric is like cheering one's high school football team from the stands. Such cheering is grand, but it begs the question of whether they are using the right tactics, in the right manner, in the right place, at the right time. The French knights who charged the English archers at Agincourt may have been grand fellows and their cause may have been just. But would they not have been better off had they learned archery instead?
I have said a lot of stuff about which I have neither the time nor the temperament to defend. And you would too often find my defense technical, tedious, and dry. But I suggest people visit John Robb's blog, Global Guerillas, which covers these topics. I disagree with John on all sorts of technical points, but he is a brilliant fellow who grasps and covers the sorts of things I have been discussing in this post.
I have a lot of problems with my own argument. I would very much like to see national health insurance - but does that not depend upon the same nation-state which I have just derided? I am a Democrat, spend a lot of time on blogs like DailyKos, and would very much like to see the Democrats win this November. But deep down I know that that would be futile, that they would fail because victory or defeat itself in Washington means less and less every day and that there is nothing that George Bush, Nancy Pelosi, or anyone else could do about it. The real solutions to today's world are being worked out elsewhere - on this website, in a small way, actually.
So I grouse and grumble - because I have not yet fully learned to walk my own talk - but the times themselves would not yet allow anyone fully to do so. But they will; I can see that now.
My reasons are complex. In a nutshell, in today's world due to globalization, the environment, and other items, the nation-state is either too small to handle the big issues or too big to handle the little ones. To me, it is not merely a question of whether being patriotic is morally good or bad; but - more bluntly - does patriotism enable one to put one's eggs in the right basket given the realities of today's world?
Another problem is that guerilla warfare is establishing itself as a very effective counter to Western conventional warfare. Hezbollah's success against Israel in Lebanon is but the latest episode. A lot of this "support the troops" rhetoric is like cheering one's high school football team from the stands. Such cheering is grand, but it begs the question of whether they are using the right tactics, in the right manner, in the right place, at the right time. The French knights who charged the English archers at Agincourt may have been grand fellows and their cause may have been just. But would they not have been better off had they learned archery instead?
I have said a lot of stuff about which I have neither the time nor the temperament to defend. And you would too often find my defense technical, tedious, and dry. But I suggest people visit John Robb's blog, Global Guerillas, which covers these topics. I disagree with John on all sorts of technical points, but he is a brilliant fellow who grasps and covers the sorts of things I have been discussing in this post.
I have a lot of problems with my own argument. I would very much like to see national health insurance - but does that not depend upon the same nation-state which I have just derided? I am a Democrat, spend a lot of time on blogs like DailyKos, and would very much like to see the Democrats win this November. But deep down I know that that would be futile, that they would fail because victory or defeat itself in Washington means less and less every day and that there is nothing that George Bush, Nancy Pelosi, or anyone else could do about it. The real solutions to today's world are being worked out elsewhere - on this website, in a small way, actually.
So I grouse and grumble - because I have not yet fully learned to walk my own talk - but the times themselves would not yet allow anyone fully to do so. But they will; I can see that now.
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I enjoyed reading your post, but this particular point struck me the most:
I think people do the "support the troops" dance because it's the thing to do. They say it because it seems like a good thing to say. Am I some heartless, callous, cad of a heel if I don't support what they're doing over there? To the majority of blindly patriotic (nationalistic) Americans, yes. I'm a *blankety blank blank* and my mother dresses me funny. It's almost like these people equate my having said that with me saying I'm glad they're dead. Loss of human life is something I've never been okay with, soldier or otherwise.
Also, this "defending our freedom" crap ... bleagh. I can do without that, too. I'm sure that at least 25% of the people who read that sentence are going to think I'm some dissident aggressor who shouldn't be allowed to live here.
The Mad Hatter said:
I think people do the "support the troops" dance because it's the thing to do. They say it because it seems like a good thing to say. Am I some heartless, callous, cad of a heel if I don't support what they're doing over there? To the majority of blindly patriotic (nationalistic) Americans, yes. I'm a *blankety blank blank* and my mother dresses me funny. It's almost like these people equate my having said that with me saying I'm glad they're dead. Loss of human life is something I've never been okay with, soldier or otherwise.
Also, this "defending our freedom" crap ... bleagh. I can do without that, too. I'm sure that at least 25% of the people who read that sentence are going to think I'm some dissident aggressor who shouldn't be allowed to live here.
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YES, it is okay to be patriotic.
This has never been an issue for me. So in answering the original thread starter of a question....Of course it is alright to be proud/patriotic of your country.
All our members on TFL here represent a global community (not one country above and beyond any others) and come from many different nations, backgrounds and cultures from around the world. Our national diversity is bonded 'here' by a common interest in things vintage.
So wherever you come from, and whatever nation you might call home, a resounding YES on feeling proud and patriotic to be a part of your home nation and its people.
This has never been an issue for me. So in answering the original thread starter of a question....Of course it is alright to be proud/patriotic of your country.
All our members on TFL here represent a global community (not one country above and beyond any others) and come from many different nations, backgrounds and cultures from around the world. Our national diversity is bonded 'here' by a common interest in things vintage.
So wherever you come from, and whatever nation you might call home, a resounding YES on feeling proud and patriotic to be a part of your home nation and its people.
raiderrescuer
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Patriotism...
Part of the problem I think is some people don't know where to draw the line.
It's not a skill that is passed down anymore and it is now gotten redefined by individuals not by society.
When I went to Turkey in the 80's the big thing I saw was Americans putting down the Turks because they weren't "Americanized"...one fellow Airman went as far as saying:
"How barbaric are these Turks they don't even have a McDonalds. Man I can't wait to get back to America: Red, White and Blue and McDonalds too."
Not realizing that most Turks have more National Pride than here in the USA and the Turkish family values at the time were similar to ours in the 40's and 50's.
Part of the problem I think is some people don't know where to draw the line.
It's not a skill that is passed down anymore and it is now gotten redefined by individuals not by society.
When I went to Turkey in the 80's the big thing I saw was Americans putting down the Turks because they weren't "Americanized"...one fellow Airman went as far as saying:
"How barbaric are these Turks they don't even have a McDonalds. Man I can't wait to get back to America: Red, White and Blue and McDonalds too."
Not realizing that most Turks have more National Pride than here in the USA and the Turkish family values at the time were similar to ours in the 40's and 50's.
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