Is it ok to negotiate and/or offer less than the listed price? What qualifies as a low ball offer?

[Superfluous]

I had listed a Thedi for 650. I received an offer of 300. That's what I call lowballing and a waste of my time. I felt offended by that offer.

Perhaps a waste of three seconds reading the low offer, but why get offended? Why give the offeror so much power over your emotions? Your getting offended is the far more significant waste of time, as compared to the three seconds reading the low offer. Hit delete and move on to the next offer without skipping a beat. Any intervening offense is wasted energy.

But I personally feel that the classifieds section here is different from eBay and vinted. Here we all know exactly how much a jacket costs new and what they go for second hand. So why should I ask 900 for an Aero If everyone here on the forum knows it's worth 500. If I list something here in the classifieds, I list it for a price that I feel is fair and on par with market value.

There are no fixed or established prices or values here on TFL any more than there are on E-Bay. Identical and/or substantially similar jackets are frequently listed here for materially different amounts -- sometimes at the same time. Likewise, sale prices for the same or substantially similar jackets are often materially different. Some sellers hold out waiting for the guy who simply must have their jacket, no matter the price. I am frequently astonished by the patience of some sellers with year-old listings. Other sellers are impatient and/or will sell the exact same jacket for materially less depending on their unique circumstances. Sometimes, the exact same jacket is resold here multiple times for materially different amounts. There is nothing sacred about the TFL Classified section. It is a marketplace like any other. People list jackets for unreasonably high prices, middle of the road prices, and below market prices every day of the week.

You state that, when you sell a jacket, you list it for "a price that [you] feel is fair." I believe you -- you are an honorable guy and you have the best of intentions. However, that does not mean that your subjective determination of a fair price is in fact fair. What is fair to one person is a rip-off to another and a steal to someone else. The fairness of pricing is inherently subjective and in a constant state of flux. Past sales provide some insight, but are by no means dispositive of future values or pricing. The most recent sale might be the product of an overzealous buyer . . . or an impatient seller . . . either way, the sale price may be distorted.

 

[Ayeteael]

People need to put on their big boy pants and accept that the free market decides the price! Buyers can offer whatever they want and sellers can accept, decline, or counter. This is such a simple and universal concept it baffles me when people are “offended” by “low-ball” offers.

 

[Superfluous]

What slightly annoys me is when you sell items on auction at a very minimal starting price knowing that you will always get a fairly decent sale price and early in the auction buyers will come and offer you a fiver or tenner thinking you may not know what the item is actually worth. That is a little uncalled for and verging on unscrupulous

Unscrupulous? Did the offeror hold a gun to your head? Did the offeror make material misrepresentations to you? If the offeror did nothing more than offer you well below your subjective opinion of market value, that is not, IMHO, unscrupulous. Rather, that is an offeror hoping to find an eager seller and score a good deal.

 

[Superfluous]

I would just laugh it off and simply not sell.

^ This. Don't get offended. Instead, get amused. Much better emotion.

 

[jonbuilder]

I am in close agreement with Superfluous. on another note I been hesitant to approach a seller who is high in relation to what similar jackets have been selling recently. Should I PM an offer or wait about r five months and see if the seller sees reality. While I wait some else may move in at the price point I was thinking and ake the jacket

 

[dwilson]

Unscrupulous? Did the offeror hold a gun to your head? Did the offeror make material misrepresentations to you? If the offeror did nothing more than offer you well below your subjective opinion of market value, that is not, IMHO, unscrupulous. Rather, that is an offeror hoping to find an eager seller and score a good deal.

I think the argument is that the buyer knows the actual value and is hoping to prey on someone who does not know the value. Almost like a theft of ignorance. Its something I'm not sure where I really stand on it from a moral point of view. It isn't something I'd actively do but if I saw someone selling something I was interested in and knew the price was way below market value I'd probably buy it and not tell them I would have paid more. At the same time I wouldn't buy something low simply to flip it higher but some people that is their occupation.

 

[dannyk]

Not much I can add here. I have been “low-balled” and I have certainly sent “low-ball” offers. In the sense people would consider them that way. I don’t really get offended or upset. Sometimes I question the offer. If I have something listed for say 600 and they offer 50 bucks. Then I wouldn’t get offended I would scratch my head and laugh ha. But no, I don’t really care. I just say no thanks. The only time I get annoyed or angry is if the same person repeatedly tries to get something. Let’s go back to my example I say no to 50 then they send an offer of 70, I say no can’t really do less than 450...then they offer 80. At that point I get annoyed and maybe offended. Just because at that point they are wasting my time and theirs. But other than that scenario I don’t mind at all. It’s how private transactions like this work.

In terms of some others have mentioned their professional lives and commercial business. Well prices are listed and you pay them for a product or service. If you don’t like it, go somewhere else. I also believe in public access to certain things and market regulations but that goes down a political side of things and I won’t go there.
I also believe individuals should be paid appropriately for their time, effort and skills. If you hire someone to do a job they need to be paid what the market dictates their skill level is at; and paid for every single second they are doing the said job. No haggle, no deal, no low-ball. But don’t care if someone offers whatever for my boots or jackets. In fact I would say anytime I’ve listed anything I’ve always expected to get less. I list expecting that in the end I will get 20-25% less than the listing. Maybe I’m doing this wrong...ha

edited for typos

 

[Superfluous]

I think the argument is that the buyer knows the actual value and is hoping to prey on someone who does not know the value. Almost like a theft of ignorance. Its something I'm not sure where I really stand on it from a moral point of view. It isn't something I'd actively do but if I saw someone selling something I was interested in and knew the price was way below market value I'd probably buy it and not tell them I would have paid more.

We ALL have purchased things for what we believed to be way, way below market value . . . and smiled all the way home at our good fortune. Exactly nothing wrong with that. Would I do this in a face to face transaction with an obviously mentally incompetent individual, and thereby take advantage of his/her impairment -- of course not. That said, in the world of internet marketplaces and anonymous sellers, everyone is free to seek the best deals possible, without regard for whether the seller is giving away the farm. The seller may be smart as a whip, but in dire need of funds to pay his rent. You may be doing him a favor by buying his product at a below-market price and thereby enabling him to avoid eviction. Who knows. Not my concern. If you are honest and do not apply any coercion, you are free to negotiate the best deal possibly, even if that results in you scoring something for way, way, way below what you or others might consider its subjective value. All sellers are free to say no and, if they happen to say yes to a smokin deal, congrats to the savvy buyer.

 

[navetsea]

sorry I derail again,
in my country there is reversal awkwardness pretty common here... I called some keymaker since I accidentally locked myself out of the car at petrol station and by the end of the work, I asked howmuch, and he would answer up to you. pretty common here people don't name his own price. I didn't ask up front because it is a state of emergency, what the cost of him leaving his business momentarily to jump on his moped to help me it's only require him a piece of flat metal wire and 3 minutes of his time but it worth everything to me. so I probably overpaid him by much I chalk it off as the cost of my stupidity not to repeat the same mistake again.

and this jacket maker where I order mine, the only time they name a price up front was my first jacket, on the following projects even when I asked they would answer me not yet calculated, can't quote me the price unless the jacket is done done, I asked the price once where it was nearly complete only waiting for snaps to be installed, and still I got no answer... always with "dunno yet, ahh it's easy later, kind of answer" my mother is a dress maker, and from what I hear when she talk to me on my visit she also do the same thing to her clients, she never mention upfront how much the initial cost, how much per additional changes or revisions, and she would assume her clients would all be cool with the mystery price they would be quoted at the end and seems it is taboo or shameful to talk about money upfront.

 

[Marc mndt]

Perhaps a waste of three seconds reading the low offer, but why get offended? Why give the offeror so much power over your emotions? Your getting offended is the far more significant waste of time, as compared to the three seconds reading the low offer. Hit delete and move on to the next offer without skipping a beat. Any intervening offense is wasted energy.

If the offer came from someone I didn't 'know', of course, I'd simply delete and not think another second about it. In this case it came from a long standing forum member and I felt insulted, because he knew exactly the price I paid and he told me he'd take it off my hands if the jacket didn't fit even before the jacket was in my possession. But maybe this says more about me than it says about others

You state that, when you sell a jacket, you list it for "a price that [you] feel is fair." I believe you -- you are an honorable guy and you have the best of intentions. However, that does not mean that your subjective determination of a fair price is in fact fair. What is fair to one person is a rip-off to another and a steal to someone else.

Good point. Cannot argue with that.

Again, maybe this says more about me and how I experience things than anything else. Last month I bought two jackets from the classifieds. On both I paid asking price without arguing. We split shipping costs on one. Why? Because I though asking price was fair. What use is it to haggle down from 450 to 400 for instance. If I want a jacket a tfl member is selling , I pay asking price.

When I'm buying on Vinted or ebay, it's a totally different story. I'll haggle down to the last €. Because to me it's a sport and I enjoy the game.

So for me personally, there's a difference between buying from fellow jacket aficionados or buying from total strangers.

 

[Ayeteael]

If the offer came from someone I didn't 'know', of course, I'd simply delete and not think another second about it. In this case it came from a long standing forum member and I felt insulted, because he exactly knew the price I paid and he told me he'd take it off my hands if the jacket didn't fit even before the jacket was in my possession. But maybe this says more about me than it says about others


Good point. Cannot argue with that.

Again, maybe this says more about me and how I experience things than anything else. Last month I bought two jackets from the classifieds. On both I paid asking price without arguing. We split shipping costs on one. Why? Because I though asking price was fair. What use is it to haggle down from 450 to 400 for instance. If I want a jacket a tfl member is selling , I pay asking price.

When I'm buying on Vinted or ebay, it's a totally different story. I'll haggle down to the last €. Because to me it's a sport and I enjoy the game.

So for me personally, there's a difference between buying from fellow jacket aficionados or buying from total strangers.

I think this is very admirable of you and speaks volumes of your character, but I also think it would be unreasonable to expect the same from every member here, especially since people’s motivations for buying and selling (as well as their means/expectations/customs) vary widely.

 

[jonesy86]

Maybe I fall somewhere in-between caveat emptor and there is a sucker born every minute.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Sorry 'NO' won't sell it for that but thanks for the interest. 'YES' I will sell it to you for that price! Is it so hard to say NO....so difficult to say YES? Why get upset? Why let any of the game bother you? We all know the process. The seller holds the cards, has the last word, is the decider, in control. The price for this piece of my engraved artwork is $ 750. Wanna buy it?

 

[Marc mndt]

I think this is very admirable of you and speaks volumes of your character, but I also think it would be unreasonable to expect the same from every member here, especially since people’s motivations for buying and selling (as well as their means/expectations/customs) vary widely.

Fair point. If I want something, I don't care about 100 more or less. But I can imagine to someone who has been saving money to buy an expensive leather jacket, the difference between 400 and 450 is significant.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yep, I want $575..er I mean $750.

Now if you only offer me $400, I might get so emotional that I won't know what to say...'For about 25 seconds".

 

[jonesy86]

Sorry 'NO' won't sell it for that but thanks for the interest. 'YES' I will sell it to you for that price! Is it so hard to say NO....so difficult to say YES? Why get upset? Why let any of the game bother you? We all know the process. The seller holds the cards, has the last word, is the decider, in control. The price for this piece of my engraved artwork is $ 750. Wanna buy it? View attachment 319227 View attachment 319229 View attachment 319230 View attachment 319231

Will ya take $200?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

200 100 dollar bills?? Why yes, but cash only wrapped in a rubber band. Oh I forgot $2 shipping. Thanks

 

[jonesy86]

200 100 dollar bills?? Why yes, but cash only wrapped in a rubber band. Oh I forgot $2 shipping. Thanks

Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay.

 

[J Leather Investigater]

I just read a thread in the classified section wherein several members denounced the practice of offering to purchase a jacket for less than the listed price. Frankly, I was surprised by the disapproval. I have sold several jackets here on TFL and, in every instance, I received offers for less than the listed price, including from well-respected members, and I sold each of the jackets for less than the listed price. Likewise, in the one instance where I purchased a jacket from the TFL classifieds, I offered less than the asking price, a negotiation ensued, and I paid less than the asking price – materially less. IMHO, such negotiations are inherent in the process of buying and selling used jackets, among other things, and certainly not inappropriate or offensive. In fact, many sellers intentionally list their jackets, and other products, at a price exceeding what they hope to net precisely because they anticipate a negotiation and want to leave room to discount the price as part of the expected negotiation.

There is nothing wrong with buyers attempting to negotiate a good deal on a jacket, or even a below market deal. Depending on a multitude of factors and circumstances, many sellers are willing to accept below-market prices in order to complete a sale. There is nothing wrong with a buyer seeking such a deal. The seller remains free to decline.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with a seller seeking to make money through the sale of a jacket and/or seeking to maximize his/her return by starting at a high asking price. Many here, including well-respected members, have acknowledged selling jackets for more than they paid for them and thereby making money through the buying and selling of jackets. Perfectly appropriate.

Some espouse the belief that, if the original asking price is “fair” or a “good deal,” potential buyers should not offer less and/or negotiate. However, the determination of what is a “fair” price or a “good deal” is entirely subjective, and one person’s “fair” price is another person’s rip-off. Therefore, I disagree with the notion that, if a jacket is priced “fairly,” counteroffers are inappropriate.

IMHO, if a seller does not want to receive offers for less than the asking price, he or she should expressly state as such in the listing (and buyers should abide).

Many here condemn the practice of “low-ball” offers. What exactly is a “low-ball” offer? What qualifies as a “low-ball”? Is it defined by a percentage of the asking price? What percentage below asking is a “low-ball”? What if the original asking price is particularly high and/or perceived as well above market – in that case, can one offer a larger percentage below asking without qualifying as a “low ball”? What if the original asking price is particularly low and/or perceived as well below market – in that case, do even small discounts qualify as a “low-ball”? Who makes these determinations?

The bottom line is that, in most instances, the determination of a “low-ball” offer is as subjective as the determination of a “fair” or “good price,” and all of these various subjective determinations are inextricably interrelated.

Some sellers bemoan the receipt of “low-ball” offers as exasperating and taxing? What is the big deal? It takes three seconds to scan and delete the message. If you are so inclined, you can spend an additional five seconds typing “no thank you” and hit send. Either way, it is far from an onerous or oppressive occurrence. I have received many offers that I personally considered way, way below the market price of my jacket. Five seconds later, my “no thank you” reply is sent and I move on. The exchange does not cause me the slightest bit of aggravation.

Recently, I was on the fence about a jacket offered for sale here. I was concerned that it would not fit. It was very expensive and I was unwilling to take the risk at the listed price. I offered 20% below the listed price (I didn’t intend to offer exactly 20% below, but that is what it ended up being). The seller politely declined. I did not follow-up and the jacket subsequently sold. Was my offer of 20% below asking a low-ball? I didn’t think so. Rather, the offer was what I was willing to pay under the circumstances, including my concern about the fit and my ability to resell the jacket if it didn’t fit. The seller stood firm and appropriately so as he subsequently sold it for more. Good for him.

I recently purchased a substantial piece of art. The seller’s broker told me that she would not communicate an offer to the seller that was less than 20% of the listed price because it would be “offensive” to the seller. I was unwilling to pay 80% of the asking price and, therefore, I said nothing for several weeks. Then, in defiance of the broker’s statement, I offered 33% of the asking price. Notwithstanding her prior statement, the broker communicated my offer to the seller without comment. I ended up buying the piece for 30% of the asking price. Was my 33% discount offer a “low-ball”? Clearly not given the ultimate sale price.

When I purchased my first new car (many moons ago), I went to the dealer to do some research, with no intention of purchasing the car during that visit. The salesman asked what it would take to make the deal. Not wanting to purchase the car at that time, I stated a ridiculously low price. The salesman recoiled in horror at my insanely low offer and expressed forthright confidence that the dealership would never sell the car for that price. Over the next two hours, the salesman, and then his manager, progressively lowered their asking price in approximately eight incremental decreases, each time expecting me to raise my offer. I never raised my offer once . . . because I did not intend to purchase the car at that time. After this two hour dance, the dealership sold me the car for my original, ridiculously low offer. What is the moral of the story? My ridiculously low offer probably wasn’t that low or ridiculous and I probably could have purchased the car for even less.

I agree with those who condemn pestering buyers who continue to pursue a discount even after the buyer declines or does not respond. If the seller counters and a negotiation follows, that’s great. However, if the seller declines or does not respond, the buyer should stand down. Further efforts at this point are inappropriate.

Now, having lit the fuse, I am going to put on my fire retardant jacket and run for cover.

There is nothing wrong with negotiating a deal at all. I think there is a difference between negotiating and a " low ball offer , that is when the "offer" is obviously ridiculous. If someone is selling a 1500 jacket that is in good condition an asking 900 thats reasonable an a good start. I personally would feel like a jack ass to offer 400. Each deal/ item is unique. With that being said with our general knowledge we know what to expect to pay based on maker, condition, an availability.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Someone gives you a ridiculously low offer. Why get upset?? No thanks 'no can do' is very easy to say.