Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Mr Oldschool]

Imo that one wants to wear a hat.

The underlying reasons are as wonderfully multi facetted as a diamond and should not be simplified into a lump of dirt.

That's part of my point. Or at least the point I'm stumbling about trying to make. I think the significance of hat ettiquette has become much less as the reason for wearing the hat becomes more of a utilitarian purpose. 60+ years ago, at least in America, the hat was a required component of your daily clothing ensemble which was alltogether very regulated in what, how, and when you wear such and such items. It has become far less common for the average Joe to wear suits or similar components. Wearing neckties is diminishing, too. I work at a bank that allows more casual looks to enough degree that if I wear a sportcoat, the customers tend to comment that I'm wearing a "suit" and that I must have a job interview coming up! The fact that a suit required matching jacket and pants is completely lost on them.

I keep rambling all over the place because I'm having difficulty expressing the underlying thoughts I have on the subject and making them fit, so I apologize to anyone finding my posts a little hard to follow.

Doffing is very popular among the Chappist / Anarcho-dandyist set here in the UK, who are, of course, at the forefront of keeping hat-wearing alive.

I think you hit the nail on the head at my concern with attempting to follow reasonable ettiquette, my friend. Those would be the Neo-Ska types over on this side of the pond, and I definitely don't want to be taken for one of them, much less a dandy on any level. I tend to be OCD enough that checking my hat or sleeve for lint can make me seem like a fop if I'm not careful. At the same time, I don't want to seem too casual about hat wearing (or any other component of my appearance) because I don't want to be a slob. I think many of the ballcap wearers around here do so because then they can skip taking a shower (ick).

So that begs the question, what, if anything, is acceptable in today's overly casual atmosphere, and what looks non-genuine and ostentatious, and is best avoided?

 

[Huertecilla]

So that begs the question, what, if anything, is acceptable in today's overly casual atmosphere, and what looks non-genuine and ostentatious, and is best avoided?

Be genuine, avoid the rest.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

Be genuine, avoid the rest.

Truer words were ne'er spoken (or typed)!

 

[sola fide]

Late to the party, but I was raised to remove my hat when entering a building and that was affirmed while in the Navy. "Remove your cover when entering a room." Now a days I keep my ball cap on when entering the grocery store, but I would never keep a hat on when entering Church or any other place that is held sacred to others out of respect to the people though some maintain head coverings during their time of worship.
Mike A

 

[Rabbit]

Shadomega, a belated welcome to the Lounge from across the pond.
I think you're putting it rather well, the point you're trying to convey. It really is more of a philosophical question, it seems.

On the one hand, we wish to dress properly following standards that have long been neglected by the majority, although never disappearing entirely, and which are also constantly being twisted by the quirks of fashion.

On the other hand, we find ourselves in a society - or societies, and groups within societies etc. etc. - where different people react in very different ways when being confronted with someone who dresses classical with hat and all, sometimes in a manner that may be surprising from the viewpoint of those who follow these standards. The reactions are not necessarily according to the original intention of the well-dressed man, those being self-respect and respect towards others, among other things.

Considering that our way of dressing unfortunately does not always come across the way we intend to, what, then, constitutes proper dress* in our day, given a traditionalist point of view that the "old standard" should be honored?
*Proper dress meaning to include the behaviour that goes with it, like the topic of etiquette as discussed.

I think it's a riddle that can only be solved in practice. The thinking machine rather seems to hinder the solution.

Would that be part of your point?


On a side note, I think it's natural that this is thread a bit a of a hot topic. Don't worry. After all, we are a little passionate about wearing hats.

 

[jlee562]

First, I don't mean "you" as in you personally, I mean those of the particular generation we are discussing.

If that's the case, the word "you" is not grammatically or syntactically correct to begin with.

Why would you limit it to only the immediately preceding generation? How is that any sort of relevant comparison of history?

Not really sure why this seems to be an issue for you. The question concerns preceding generations. Is this generation worse off than the generation that came before it? The depression era generation did not precede the millennials, or Gen X. Therefore the experience of the depression era generation is totally inconsequential to whether or not this current generation is worse off than their parents.

This is akin to me asking you who won the World Series last year and you telling me who won it in 1926, and further claiming who won it in 1926 is somehow an answer to who won last year. It makes absolutely no sense.

But that's the question. Will you (as in your generation, on average) have a better life than your parents?

Yes, that is the question. Which makes what my grandparents and great grandparents experience during the depression totally irrelevant.

You don't think so. But you don't know that. Every generation says the same thing. You're not the first.

Again, if you're not referring to me, don't use the word "you."

It's only an answer if you accept that projecting today into tomorrow is absolute. It's not.

Stating that upward mobility in the US in the 21st century is lower than it was in the post war period is not a "projection" as such. Moreover, as milliedog pointed out, historical analysis have demonstrated that socio-economic mobility in the U.S. is lower than many developed nations. This is NOT a projection or a prediction, this is a historical analysis of age cohorts. A broad analysis of the decades between 1940-2000 (PDF) concludes: "...our estimator places greater weight on birth location effects than the standard intergenerational coefficient, evidence suggests that the size of the bias is small and unlikely to account for the sharp change
since 1980. The recent decline in mobility is only partially explained by education. Our preferred set of results suggest that the rate at which earnings are regressing to the mean is slower now than at any time in the post World War II period causing economic differences between families to pe rsist longer than they had mid-century."

Finally:

As someone who has pulled myself up from the bootstraps, I can say you're way off base here. There is opportunity galore for anyone willing to work at it. Whether they are willing or not is another discussion.

While I don't doubt the authenticity of your life experience, the fact that you have achieved the Horatio Alger myth is not evidence that the statistical data is untrue.

I'm choosing to answer the question with empirical data and drawing my conclusions thusly.

 

[jlee562]

So that begs the question, what, if anything, is acceptable in today's overly casual atmosphere, and what looks non-genuine and ostentatious, and is best avoided?

What looks non-genuine? Practicing antiquated hat etiquette.

Here's a discussion on hats from a feminist oriented site, Jezebel.com:
http://jezebel.com/dude-asks-what-women-think-of-fedoras-and-the-answers-a-1512593446

Manners are wonderful, but you should extend those manners to everyone equally. If you insist on tipping your hat, at least do it to everyone, and it will come off less creepy. Singling out women as needing a special set of manners is, in an era where most women want equality, deeply unhelpful.

Basically, most women like being treated like normal people. Idealising a past where women (and many other people) basically had a worse time than they do now is not fun for most of us and looks insensitive or even ignorant - and if there are a group of women who like that, I strongly suspect they prefer to be asked first.

I don't want to have to act like a 'lady'; I want ZERO expectations put on me on the basis of being a woman. I want the same respect and opportunity as you; no less, but also no more, because it's a trade off - infantalising women or putting them on a pedestal makes them something 'other' and experience tells us that leads to BAD TIMES.

So no, I would say most women don't like the "fedora persona". There might be some who would be totally into that, but they are (I suspect) few and far between, and you will definitely really annoy some women behaving like that.

 

[Huertecilla]

Here's a discussion on hats from a feminist oriented site, Jezebel.com:

Although I am no more a ´Fedora man´ than a ´dog (or cat) person´ I definitely do NOT aspire to date a feminist.
The way I see, experience and live life, men and women are not equal. The sexual di´morphism´ in so many aspects is a huge critical evolutionary success factor.
Hail the differences! Cherish and appreciate the differences. It adds up to the same worth. Roughly; afer all, for the survival of the species men are more expendable than women.
I keep a close shave and I expect my lover to do the same. No prickle chin, no prickly legs. Not the same but equivalente. There is no discussing taste so I will not; all the best to the rest.

 

[jlee562]

Although I am no more a ´Fedora man´ than a ´dog (or cat) person´ I definitely do NOT aspire to date a feminist.
The way I see, experience and live life, men and women are not equal. The sexual di´morphism´ in so many aspects is a huge critical evolutionary success factor.
Hail the differences! Cherish and appreciate the differences. It adds up to the same worth. Roughly; afer all, for the survival of the species men are more expendable than women.
I keep a close shave and I expect my lover to do the same. No prickle chin, no prickly legs. Not the same but equivalente. There is no discussing taste so I will not; all the best to the rest.

I suppose if my understanding of feminism was that caricature you hold, I might be opposed to it as well.

 

[Lotsahats]

I suppose if my understanding of feminism was that caricature you hold, I might be opposed to it as well.

:eusa_clap

 

[GHT]

I'm choosing to answer the question with empirical data and drawing my conclusions thusly.

Thusly?
Is there such a word? I would have ended the sentence: "........and draw my conclusions. thus:"

 

[MothPrey]

Here's a discussion on hats from a feminist oriented site, Jezebel.com:
http://jezebel.com/dude-asks-what-women-think-of-fedoras-and-the-answers-a-1512593446

Kissing a woman's hand and calling her "M'lady"? Seriously?

Of course they're creeped out. That has nothing to do with hats, and is certainly not hat etiquette. Maybe Renaissance Fair etiquette. You'd better be wearing tights to pull that stuff off, because you would have been laughed at 200 years ago.

Associating a fedora with behavior like that is like assuming the guy behind the counter at a Japanese steak house is going to attack you because he has a knife.

That discussion has absolutely nothing to do with simply taking your hat off when appropriate.

I've got a touch-stone for those who think it's now appropriate for a man to keep his hat on anywhere.. why not try it at your next job interview? Or testifying in court? See if they think it's silly for you to take it off.

 

[Huertecilla]

I suppose if my understanding of feminism was that caricature you hold, I might be opposed to it as well.

I abhor feminism as much as I do machismo.

We are vastly different in equal humanity, let us please be allowed to behave as males and females in the roles best suited with manners to match.

When a woman is strugling with heavy bags from the grocers to her vehicle, I lend a hand simply because I can, with no other reward than appreciation. Ditto doffing my hat for a woman.
I also walk on the roadside of my dame on the sidewalk as totally token ´protection´ from traffic.

I happen to be a tough masculin man so will lend my hand while happily acknowledging that many a woman is far better at finer things and multitasking. I thus courtuously offer to carry a bag and take my hat off to their fortes.
Sod the feminist who tákes offence. ´Take´ is her own doing, not mine as no I simply pay my respect to the other sex.

 

[Huertecilla]

That discussion has absolutely nothing to do with simply taking your hat off when appropriate.

Hear, hear!

 

[Mr Oldschool]

What looks non-genuine? Practicing antiquated hat etiquette.

Here's a discussion on hats from a feminist oriented site, Jezebel.com:
http://jezebel.com/dude-asks-what-women-think-of-fedoras-and-the-answers-a-1512593446

Yeah... I can't really say I'm all that fond of the more vocal proponents of "Feminism". I'm all for equal rights and all that, but I'm also a pretty conservative sort, "old-fashioned" if you will, and most of the feminism I see is extremist, which I find offputting. Looking at the article you linked to, the problem I see is that the guy asking the question appears to be exactly the type of "poser" I don't want to be mistaken for, hence I don't tip my hat, I never do the m'lady bit, and the only hands I kiss are my daughters when I am playing with them. I once tried Bogey-izing the way I called my wife "sweetheart", an appellation I use frequently on her, and she accused me of trying to be Bogart. That was enough for me to know where the line was. In my defense, I was trying to be funny, but I didn't care for the implication that I was playing pretend. Just acting natural, I don't feel an urge to tip my hat, but I do feel the urge to remove my hat indoors and when dining. Church, funerals, national anthem, pledge of allegiance, formal salutes- those sort of things are still sacred in my eyes, and the hat comes off for them, but then, since most of those occur indoors, the hat wasn't on at the time anyway...

 

[Mr Oldschool]

I abhor feminism as much as I do machismo.

We are vastly different in equal humanity, let us please be allowed to behave as males and females in the roles best suited with manners to match.

When a woman is strugling with heavy bags from the grocers to her vehicle, I lend a hand simply because I can, with no other reward than appreciation. Ditto doffing my hat for a woman.
I also walk on the roadside of my dame on the sidewalk as totally token ´protection´ from traffic.

I happen to be a tough masculin man so will lend my hand while happily acknowledging that many a woman is far better at finer things and multitasking. I thus courtuously offer to carry a bag and take my hat off to their fortes.
Sod the feminist who tákes offence. ´Take´ is her own doing, not mine as no I simply pay my respect to the other sex.

I'm with you on this. I also offer my help to elderly people, young people who look like they need it, and anyone who looks like their arms are full and they could use an assist. I can't say I am good enough to do it all the time, but I try to be gentlemanly. Much of what I see in the world today considers "gentleman" to be an insult. Seems like a lot of guys think of it as pansyish, and so-called post-lib women react like in that article, reviling basic chivalry. One of the foremost tenets of chivalry is to not hit a woman, under any circumstances (which I stricly adhere to, btw), so are these extreme feminists saying they would rather have guys sock them when they get in an argument? I think a chivalrous attitude is far more productive...

 

[jlee562]

Thusly?
Is there such a word? I would have ended the sentence: "........and draw my conclusions. thus:"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thusly

Kissing a woman's hand and calling her "M'lady"? Seriously?

Of course they're creeped out. That has nothing to do with hats, and is certainly not hat etiquette. Maybe Renaissance Fair etiquette. You'd better be wearing tights to pull that stuff off, because you would have been laughed at 200 years ago.

Associating a fedora with behavior like that is like assuming the guy behind the counter at a Japanese steak house is going to attack you because he has a knife.

That discussion has absolutely nothing to do with simply taking your hat off when appropriate.

I've got a touch-stone for those who think it's now appropriate for a man to keep his hat on anywhere.. why not try it at your next job interview? Or testifying in court? See if they think it's silly for you to take it off.

A discussion of when it is or is not appropriate to tip one's hat, has nothing to do with hats? A discussion of bringing past etiquette practices into the present day is not germane to the discussion?

Oooookay.

Though I will say, the last time I had jury duty, the guy who didn't remove his hat in the court room was an older gentleman.

Your point about in court/job interviews is actually something of a strawman. I don't see anyone that has asserted that hats can and should be worn anywhere at any time.

I abhor feminism as much as I do machismo.

We are vastly different in equal humanity, let us please be allowed to behave as males and females in the roles best suited with manners to match.

When a woman is strugling with heavy bags from the grocers to her vehicle, I lend a hand simply because I can, with no other reward than appreciation. Ditto doffing my hat for a woman.
I also walk on the roadside of my dame on the sidewalk as totally token ´protection´ from traffic.

I happen to be a tough masculin man so will lend my hand while happily acknowledging that many a woman is far better at finer things and multitasking. I thus courtuously offer to carry a bag and take my hat off to their fortes.
Sod the feminist who tákes offence. ´Take´ is her own doing, not mine as no I simply pay m

I don't want to run a tangent off of something which is already a tangent in this discussion. I will only reiterate what I said previously: if I held that caricature of what feminism is in the 21st century, I might be opposed to it as well. Suffice to say that which you have attached to the word "feminism" is not representative of a more modern perception of the word.

As to the general question of what is or is not appropriate in the modern day, generally speaking, I don't think it's necessary to remove one's hat indoors unless the formality of the situation demands it. To the above example, yes, I think one should remove their hat during a job interview, in church, or at a fine dining establishment. But any public place indoors, or a neighborhood restaurant? Fine to leave it on, especially since most establishments have no proper place to put one's hat. I don't see one facing any problems being perceived as rude for doing so.

 

[fedoracentric]

In truth, there is no such thing as "feminism" any more as it has been changed, morphed, diluted and re-imagined so much as to simply become shorthand for someone that supports women. "Feminism" no longer exists like it once did, as a radical, anti-capitalist, anti-human, anti-logic, anti-family ideology. While some wackos still practice "feminism" in that way, few who call themselves feminists today actually hold to the warped, disgusting Betty Friedan/Gloria Steinem-styled foolishness.

 

[Mystic]

Jeez.....


All I wanted to do was wear a hat. [huh]

 

[Joe Rotax]

Jeez.....


All I wanted to do was wear a hat. [huh]

This is why I just do what I think is right at the time...lol