Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Huertecilla]

I think it is mostly obsolete.

Etiquette is never obsolete. That in general manners are of a basic, just about non existent level is a sign of our time. Most people dont even know they should eat with their lips closed, not speak while masticating, eat with fork left and knife right even fork a, nd knife at all, so never mind pulling up a chair, opening doors, hat etiquette and the proper way to walk up stairs with a woman is like secret.

Obviously women are no different in this, thus no more aware than men. The result is that over here being courteous is not even noticed by most woman, at least not straight away. Grab/hold a chair for one and she is sure to assume that it is for yourself. I have taken to vastly exagerated manners and verbal assistance; ´let me hold a chair/the door for you.´

I am not sure whether it is appreciated or seen as weird but for mé it is elementary thus will keep it up and I will not enjoy company of a masticating talker or fork hacker.

I am suddenly confronted with that, because hat wearing is no longer common, in public places there is no longer provision for leaving one. Hat shelves are threatened with extinction.
Because hat wearing is no longer common leaving one on the table is extra conspicuous. So where does that leave you with etiquette??!!

 

[HudsonHawk]

Hat etiquette is alive and well among the civilized and those who wear a hat as more than a hipster fashion statement. All is not lost, as most would have you believe.

 

[Crazy Dave]

I've read through the many rules of hat etiquette (European and Western, they're a bit different) since starting to wear hats, and will apply etiquette except where it will make no sense anymore. Examples: I've stopped taking my hat off in elevators because people will step in real close and crush it with their bags and backpacks. For restaurants I use Western etiquette, meaning I'll take my hat off if there is a clean and safe place to put it, I've rarely had to keep it on. I will rarely tip my hat to anyone, and certainly not doff it. Doffing correctly (holding it off your head an inch or two by the brim) is annoyingly difficult, people are no longer used to it, and it might make them uncomfortable. Love seeing Hercule Poirot do that, but it just doesn't work for me. I will take my hat off when talking to ladies at some length, talking to a police officer (they like the sign of respect and these people have a tough job), or when asking for help/directions/... Taking it off inside a church or someone's home goes without saying.

Funny enough ball caps being worn everywhere (aside from inside a church, I'm not religious but it's just plain disrespectful) doesn't disturb me, guess I don't consider those hats.

 

[Seb Lucas]

What hat etiquette?

 

[Huertecilla]

Examples: I've stopped taking my hat off in elevators because people will step in real close and crush it with their bags and backpacks.

I will get out myself as elevators themselves already bother me quite seriously and more than just the odd other occupant I cannot deal with.
How do I solve that in building too high to walk the stairs, more than 10 floors? I don´t. I will not go up then.

The mentioned ´western´ custom in restaurants is a practical adaptation I totally understand but want not to make. I have decided that I will if necessary ask for a chair for my hat. After all it is, imo, the réstaurant that is failing.

How come the Poirot gesture does not work for you?
Mind; I am new to this game and on a discovery journey.
On horseback I have well and truely sussed it all out and take off my hat for a lady with a vastly exagerated sway = totally impropriate on foot.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

It's pretty much dead in my country.
I do try to follow western hat etiquette. If I go to a snack bar I'll not remove my hat, but if I go to a restaurant I remove it when I'm about to seat. If the table is too low and there is no place to put it safe, then it returns to my head. I might only put in on when I leave or right after. I'll not remove my hat on shopping places, I do remove it on church or cemetery. When I greet a woman with a kiss on the cheek, I'll remove my hat just before. When I go to public buildings I might not remove it, depends on the building itself.
I also see the same problems with ball caps already related here, it looks like it's worldwide "ball cap etiquette" if there is such thing.

 

[Huertecilla]

it looks like it's worldwide "ball cap etiquette" if there is such thing.

Only the part of the world where ball caps are abundant. There is no such thing as ´worldwide´ yet luckily. Over here the hats still seriously outnumber the ball caps and an adult wearing one is an exception looking rather silly.

 

[TheDane]

Etiquette is never obsolete. That in general manners are of a basic, just about non existent level is a sign of our time.

It's a matter of how traditionalist you are - and that you are, indeed. You are repeating the same old "song", Socrates "sang" about 2.000 years ago:

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

If Socrates - the millions after him, complaining the very same - and you really were right, our civilization would have been long dead, and we would all be crawling the gutters along with the rats. That is obviously not the case, but that fact certainly won't keep some from chanting rants about others' bad conduct.

Another funny thing about this ever repeated frowning/ranting is, that the mannerless youth only can be a product of the frowning/ranting generation's skills, when it comes to raising their offspring in a proper manner. Don't look outside yourself, if you're looking for an answer to your "mysteries". If you're right, you belong to a completely dysfunctional generation.

Maybe it all just boil down to your own problems with fitting in, Sir? I think, it would be wise to look in an other direction for answers. As said, the same nonsense has been repeated for 2.000 years now!

 

[emigran]

I'll doff my lid once seated or if inside an office ( not a bank), not very skilled at tipping... if I could be like Wm Powell it'd be a lot easier to carry off...
same way when just walking down the street... ya gotta OWN it...

 

[GentlemanGamer]

While I'd say not a lot of people practice the 'no hats indoors' policy, I wouldn't say its obsolete; as long as there are still people who do such a thing and people still feel respected when you take off your hat for them, then I would argue it's still very relevent today even if it's not common practice.

 

[Florida_Marlin]

Been there before.. More than once

This has been covered in numerous threads. Some still open, some closed.

Here's one, for example.

http://http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?72965-Do-any-of-you-guys-follow-any-type-of-hat-etiquette

 

[skydog757]

When I am introduced to someone, I always remove my hat (and sunglasses if I'm wearing them). Man, woman or child; it makes no difference. Usually I shake hands.

 

[alanfgag]

This has been covered in numerous threads. Some still open, some closed.

Here's one, for example.

http://http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?72965-Do-any-of-you-guys-follow-any-type-of-hat-etiquette

Another hundred pages here.

Social patterns represent different things to different folks. When I look at the lower right of the photograph posted by Fashion Frank in post 13 of this thread, I see an unaccompanied woman experiencing a show of attention from a group of men. Whether it is appreciated or not is unclear. What is known is that she won't have the right to vote for another decade.

 

[Meterman]

There have been and always will be manners, it just seems to be less of a social stigma when they are ignored. I remove my hat inside churches, professional buildings and restaurants. I usually carry one of those "hat condoms" to cover my lid just in case it absolutely has to go underneath my chair. I do not tip my hat to anyone, but I do remove it if making a new acquaintance or addressing someone I respect. I also observe the removal of sunglasses as mentioned by skydog757. It's just rude to make someone talk into mirrors or blackness.
It is your option to wear a proper hat, but in doing so, I feel you are obligated to observe it's most base rules.

 

[fedoracentric]

I think some of you guys are missing the point. When you say "I practice hat etiquette, so it is not dead," that is pretty meaningless in the scheme of things. Etiquette is only etiquette if society understands it, accepts it, and enforces it. If you are one guy doing something people used to do 80 years ago... well, you are just one guy doing something people used to do 80 years ago. You are not a guy observing societal norms.

There is no such culturally enforced thing as hat etiquette today and if society isn't enforcing the code, there ain't no code.

Listen, I am not arguing against having hat etiquette and I practice it myself most of the time. But there is no longer any cultural standards on the matter and, therefore, the etiquette no longer exists except for the archaic few who wish to practice a personal code of conduct.

 

[hatophile]

Another hundred pages here.

Social patterns represent different things to different folks. When I look at the lower right of the photograph posted by Fashion Frank in post 13 of this thread, I see an unaccompanied woman experiencing a show of attention from a group of men. Whether it is appreciated or not is unclear. What is known is that she won't have the right to vote for another decade.

Excellent point, Alan. We continue to beat this poor dead horse.

 

[Huertecilla]

Maybe it all just boil down to your own problems with fitting in, Sir?

Interesting personal reaction. The more interesting since you put it on the hat part of a forum for distinguished attire. Like that is about fitting in.

Furthermore it is an opportunity rather than a problem when the mayority is not aware of etiquettes.

 

[fedoracentric]

Again "when the mayority is not aware of etiquettes" it is NOT etiquette.
Etiquette is only etiquette when the majority of people in a society understand it to be so.

 

[suitedcboy]

For some topics that get repeated I do think it is beating a dead horse. We get enough membership turnover, at least in participation, that every time this one comes up there are many new participants and the responses have some of the same and also some new. I am enjoying this one as much as the last ones.

I am observant in what I judge to be appropriate settings as already stated by many. I have more actions of hat etiquette when greeting a 75 year old lady than when greeting a 31 year old. The 75 yr old appreciates it and when I do the same to early thirties they look at me funny. Some of the young ones have even asked me why I did it.

 

[Huertecilla]

I think some of you guys are missing the point. When you say "I practice hat etiquette, so it is not dead," that is pretty meaningless in the scheme of things. Etiquette is only etiquette if society understands it, accepts it, and enforces it. If you are one guy doing something people used to do 80 years ago... well, you are just one guy doing something people used to do 80 years ago. You are not a guy observing societal norms.

There is no such culturally enforced thing as hat etiquette today and if society isn't enforcing the code, there ain't no code.

Listen, I am not arguing against having hat etiquette and I practice it myself most of the time. But there is no longer any cultural standards on the matter and, therefore, the etiquette no longer exists except for the archaic few who wish to practice a personal code of conduct.

Etiquette can be general or exclusive.
Although etiquette tends to be conservative it can change and it will generally reflect the time. Either as acceptable form of conduct by the mayority or as distinguishing set. As such it wil never be ´dead´ just changing.
Indeed, behaving in accordance with antiquated norms whom nobody understands defeats the purpose unless one aims to be seen as eccentric.

It stands to reason that when hat wearing becomes uncommon, changes then classical hat etiquette follows and when nobody understands it anymore it will become meaningless and as such thát etiquette has become extinct, ´dead´ I agree.

Since I live in a corner of western society where hat wearing is still quite normal, ´classical´ hat etiquette is still an opportunity to behave courtuously; an opportunity to distinguish oneself while still fitting in just enough.
I should add that there is a considerable population here with british middle class origins which in my age group means that ´manners´ score there too.
As such over here hat etiquette is still alive and an outstanding opportunity.

I have worked for some time in the heartland of Germany and there too classical hat etiquette still exists. Ditto some parts of Belgium.
It may very well be that hat etiquette is still more alive in Europe.

The was btw júst yesterday a very interesting clash on a style forum. Appearantly british and continental etiquete on a style detail were diametrically opposed and the vehemence illustrated that is very much alive amongst the social groups to which the contributers belong. One group even used the word ´colonials´ in a derogative meaning to forward the own etiquette.
Interesting for me indeed as I was unaware of the whole problem even though I would automatically have followed the appearantly continental custom.