IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Spitfire]

This thread is getting more and more intersting. Thank you to all who has posted lately. Great stuff.:eusa_clap

 

[Windsock]

I agree. This description would make more sense in the context of a garment lined with an insulating material (i.e. like a B-2) rather than a sheepskin (i.e. 'self lined') garment like an Irvin. I would go on to suggest that the conventional flying clothing design of the early 1930s (like the Spalding and Cottingley suits) would make this the obvious way to go. They were often lined, rather than 'self insulated' (and sometimes had a removable liner).

I further suggest that a reading of the patent indicates that it is the format of the suit that is being patented, rather than the material. You could make a similar suit out of cotton lined with alpaca or leather lined with fur and still be covered by the patent. I think LLI was covering his options.

If we look at the patent in conjunction with IAC's contemporary adverts (see further up this thread), which show a smartly-dressed civilian gent putting on an Irvinsuit, I further suggest that what LLI was trying to produce was a flying suit that could be put on easily with a minimum of disruption to everyday clothing. If you try to put on, say, a Sidcott or 1930 pattern one-piece flying suit over a business suit, you end up looking a mess. I have worn an Irvinsuit over a DB suit and tie and it doesn't have this effect.

Alan

Agreed.

This description very closely matches that of a garment described in an RAE Farnborough (testing centre) document I have dated 1935 which discusses the performance of various flying apparel in cold weather. I'll paraphrase a little;
"General.
One experimental two piece leather flying suit (Messrs.Irving Co.Ltd.,) and two pairs of gloves, made to the requiremsnts of Martlesham Heath pilots, were sent for trial at R.A.E. A report was requested at the end of the cold season."

and also;
"One light type suit was supplied for test..."

The document is a little confusing because it appears to suggest that only one suit was provided for the tests as it always refers to "the suit". However it later mentions that two suits were compared with the "the standard R.A.F. suit" (which I take to mean the sidcot since it refers to it as a one piece suit) both being two piece but one is called a light grade suit and the other a heavy grade suit.

further in it states;
"The suit is of the two piece type having jacket and trousers of tanned leather. The light pattern is lined with camel hair cloth."

No-where unfortunately does it refer to sheepskin being used but the first description possibly implies this?

It also refers to;
"The trousers open out flat and the legs do up with separable zip fasteners; they are supported by braces over the shoulders."

The conclusions are interesting because they recommend that something that is a hybrid of an Irvin and sidcot would be most useful and that "The oocasions when a short heavy coat is necessary but overall trousers are not desirable are very rare and it is considered that the claim for the two piece suit under this heading is of little value."

Haha! How quickly circumstances and opinions change. These test were caried out in the mid '30's and substantial improvements were made in aircraft over the next few years- one of these would have been heating.

It does also recommened that only the heavy grade suit be adopted due to the complications of stores and that Night Bombers be given priority of issue.

I think that it's likely that this patent did leave the option for the material open as it hadn't been decided what was best at the time and that over a short time it became clear that the Irvin as we know it was the more practical solution.

Surely an example of one of these early light types has survived or at least someone has seen one? Might be the Irvin missing link. Alan, you wouldn't have any pictures of your old jacket by any chance?

 

[Windsock]

I used to own the finest Irvin in captivity...

That depends upon your preferences. This is one of my favourites. It belongs to a fellow on the VLJ. Not the neatest example but I love the painted name.

 

[Smithy]

Surely an example of one of these early light types has survived or at least someone has seen one? Might be the Irvin missing link.

I'd be interested in seeing pics of such early types as well if anyone has them.

"The oocasions when a short heavy coat is necessary but overall trousers are not desirable are very rare and it is considered that the claim for the two piece suit under this heading is of little value."

This is amusing with hindsight. As we now know with Fighter Command aircrew the trousers were unpopular but Irvin jackets were popular and frequently worn during the cold months. So the ability to have flying clothing split into uppers and lowers was just what was wanted - at least by Fighter Command aircrew.

 

[Smithy]

That depends upon your preferences. This is one of my favourites. It belongs to a fellow on the VLJ. Not the neatest example but I love the painted name.

Nice jacket Windsock. I'd put money on that jacket having belonged to a RCAF member or Canadian in the RAF due to the painted name.

 

[irvinsuit]

BK, I've seen many different references to the linings of irvinsuits, always fleece, fur, or wool. The most common references are fleece and fur and they are in fact both refering to exactly the same type of material. Even today, modern sheepskins are refered to as fleece and fur so I think that it's safe to assume that we can rule out any lining variations here. In my years of Irvinsuit obsession and research, I've never ever encountered a none sheepskin Irvinsuit, not even the ones that we exported to the Soviets along with Hawker Hurricanes and Handley Page Hampden aicraft. Did you all know about the Soviet Irvinsuits ???

Would it usual for this type of patent to not mention fleece as the default option for the liner? The picture apparently shows only a fleece collar and the text says:

"Flaps lined with fur or like material may be provided to cover the junction lines between the separable parts of the garment." (my underlining)

and:

"A garment as above described may, of course, 'be made from any suitable 90 material, such, for example as front leather or skin and may be lined if desired for example with fleece or fur."

So, are there Irvins out there not made of fleece? There's that damned cat amongst our pigeons again.

bk

 

[Smithy]

I've never ever encountered a none sheepskin Irvinsuit, not even the ones that we exported to the Soviets along with Hawker Hurricanes and Handley Page Hampden aicraft. Did you all know about the Soviet Irvinsuits ???

Although the Russian stuff isn't my main area of interest, it is funny how most pictures of 151 Wing and the 78th IAP, seem to show that Russian flying coats and thick greatcoats were by far the most used and popular forms of flying kit. Begs the question, did Russian pilots dislike Irvin suits or was it a case of preferring what they were used to flying in?

 

[Alan Eardley]

the secret of writing a patent application is to make it very specific in relation to certain points (e.g. in this case the contruction of the trousers) to prevent imitation and sufficiently general in relation to others (e.g. in this case the material) to prevent other manufacturers getting around the patent by simply using a different material.

I agree - it would be great to turn up an exmple of the light experimental suit. I have never seen a provable 'Irvin' of any description in anything other than sheepskin.

Alan

Agreed.

This description very closely matches that of a garment described in an RAE Farnborough (testing centre) document I have dated 1935 which discusses the performance of various flying apparel in cold weather. I'll paraphrase a little;
"General.
One experimental two piece leather flying suit (Messrs.Irving Co.Ltd.,) and two pairs of gloves, made to the requiremsnts of Martlesham Heath pilots, were sent for trial at R.A.E. A report was requested at the end of the cold season."

and also;
"One light type suit was supplied for test..."

The document is a little confusing because it appears to suggest that only one suit was provided for the tests as it always refers to "the suit". However it later mentions that two suits were compared with the "the standard R.A.F. suit" (which I take to mean the sidcot since it refers to it as a one piece suit) both being two piece but one is called a light grade suit and the other a heavy grade suit.

further in it states;
"The suit is of the two piece type having jacket and trousers of tanned leather. The light pattern is lined with camel hair cloth."

No-where unfortunately does it refer to sheepskin being used but the first description possibly implies this?

It also refers to;
"The trousers open out flat and the legs do up with separable zip fasteners; they are supported by braces over the shoulders."

The conclusions are interesting because they recommend that something that is a hybrid of an Irvin and sidcot would be most useful and that "The oocasions when a short heavy coat is necessary but overall trousers are not desirable are very rare and it is considered that the claim for the two piece suit under this heading is of little value."

Haha! How quickly circumstances and opinions change. These test were caried out in the mid '30's and substantial improvements were made in aircraft over the next few years- one of these would have been heating.

It does also recommened that only the heavy grade suit be adopted due to the complications of stores and that Night Bombers be given priority of issue.

I think that it's likely that this patent did leave the option for the material open as it hadn't been decided what was best at the time and that over a short time it became clear that the Irvin as we know it was the more practical solution.

Surely an example of one of these early light types has survived or at least someone has seen one? Might be the Irvin missing link. Alan, you wouldn't have any pictures of your old jacket by any chance?

 

[irvinsuit]

Soviet Irvins

Although the Russian stuff isn't my main area of interest, it is funny how most pictures of 151 Wing and the 78th IAP, seem to show that Russian flying coats and thick greatcoats were by far the most used and popular forms of flying kit. Begs the question, did Russian pilots dislike Irvin suits or was it a case of preferring what they were used to flying in?

Smithy, my guess would be that Soviet logistics being what they were you would make the best of what you had. I don't have much info on this yet, except to say that I've seen Soviet male pilots in Irvinsuits, and a Soviet General wearing an Irvin jacket. But most noted of all was a video clip of some young Soviet female pilots in new Irvinsuits ( the collars were of brand new sheepskin fur, very soft and plush ) and they wore Soviet fur lined flying helmets or standard Soviet fur hats. The girls looked gorgeous in Irvinsuits, quite unforgetable really.
Grrrrrrr (down boy )... lol

 

[Edward]

the secret of writing a patent application is to make it very specific in relation to certain points (e.g. in this case the contruction of the trousers) to prevent imitation and sufficiently general in relation to others (e.g. in this case the material) to prevent other manufacturers getting around the patent by simply using a different material.

Exactly! Helps protect the monopoly right granted under the patent. It's not my field (I'm more a copyright man when it comes to intellectual property), but memory suggests it wouldn't be quite as simple as making the same thing in a different material, but certainly the wider the net can be cast in terms of what the patent actually protects, the stronger that protection will ultimately be.

Interesting to see the "Hume" Irvin above.... it's those personal touches that give the originals real character (thinking here also of the BSA Irvin that Mike(?) has). While I prefer the design of the fewer panels on the earlier models, I am fascinated to see the "waste not, want not" later war jackets with so many panels. If you'll excuse my clumsy articulation of the thought, they almost seem more authentic than the earlier models - the relative lack of high quality replicas of the late war jackets being the key factor here.

 

[Smithy]

The girls looked gorgeous in Irvinsuits, quite unforgetable really.
Grrrrrrr (down boy )... lol

Haha! I know where you are coming from. Although miles too big for her, my fianc?©e looks fantastic when she wears mine

 

[Spitfire]

Smithy - you should know better.
Irvins were - allthough they are warm - made to wear uniforms under.

(You do not happen to have any pics you would like to share with the rest of us, do you...? Just a couple...one, maybe...:whistling )

 

[irvinsuit]

Smithy - you should know better.
Irvins were - allthough they are warm - made to wear uniforms under.

(You do not happen to have any pics you would like to share with the rest of us, do you...? Just a couple...one, maybe...:whistling )

Were they meant to have uniforms worn under, are you absolutely sure ?

 

[Speedster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire

(You do not happen to have any pics you would like to share with the rest of us, do you...? Just a couple...one, maybe... )




...and have the moderator close this thread down... We can't risk that! Can we?

 

[irvinsuit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire

(You do not happen to have any pics you would like to share with the rest of us, do you...? Just a couple...one, maybe... )




...and have the moderator close this thread down... We can't risk that! Can we?

I have photos of the Soviet female pilots in Irvins on CD, how do I get them into the forum ? Can anyone advise me ?

 

[Spitfire]

You might try using photobucket.com - it's pretty easy (I can do it!)

 

[irvinsuit]

Soviet female pilots

The one on right I'm taking out for dinner so I'll let you know if her trousers were as nice as her jacket. I was going to call it a debrief however I'll not go there.

 

[Smithy]

Thanks muchly for those Irvinsuit, great pics. That one in the second photo is brand spanking new isn't it.

And Spitfire, sorry but I think they may be deemed inappropriate for the Lounge!

 

[ethanedwards]

Under the Irvin

Were they meant to have uniforms worn under, are you absolutely sure ?

Hi, you can make out Jack's BD under his Irvin. Len Bretell (his rear gunner) has the full Irvin suit. George Protheroe (M/U gunner) is he wearing a Sidcot?
Is a Sidcot related to the Taylor suit? Always more questions than answers!
E.E.

[/IMG]

 

[irvinsuit]

Under the Irvin

Hi, you can make out Jack's BD under his Irvin. Len Bretell (his rear gunner) has the full Irvin suit. George Protheroe (M/U gunner) is he wearing a Sidcot?
Is a Sidcot related to the Taylor suit? Always more questions than answers!
E.E.

[/IMG]

Thanks Ethan, an excellent and poignant record of these brave people.
My comment about what to wear under an irvin was an attempt at humour...

Thanks