IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, Andrew S has posted this before. To save him digging it up (hope you don't mind) here it is;

"Jackets size
22C/317 1
22C/318 2 Height...5'4"- 5'6" Breast...34" -36" .waist....30"-32"
22C/319 3 HEIGHT 5' 7 - 5' 8" - BREAST 34-36" - WAIST 30-32"
22C/320 4 Height 5'.8/5.9" Breast 36/38" Waist 32/34"
22C/321 5 Height 5’10/5’11, breast 38/40, waist 34/36”
22C/322 6 Height 5'11 to 6'0" Chest 40-42 Waist 36-38
22C/323 7 Height 6'- 6'2" chest ? Waist?
22C/324 8 Height 6’ 2” -6’.4”, breast 42”-44”, waist 38”40”

Before 1939 sizes of Irvins were apparently just given in chest sizes, the most common, according to the labels I have seen, being a 44."


And yes to the comment about collars. There are planty of shots available showing jackets with standard collars used in the FAA.

This is great. It probably means my Irvin is a size 2. I am 5' 4", chest 35, waist 29-30". So i fit into the "official" measurements, even though there is no label in my jacket.

Surprisiing they made them smaller than that. Didn't the RAF have height restrictions? I know that 5' 4" is pushing it for modern British armed forces - I was right on the cusp when i considered Royal Marines after college. (jesus, looking back, that would have been a terrible decision.)

bk

 

[Windsock]

Thank you Doc, Smithy and Windsock. Apologies to you Windsock
for lifting your label! I just screengrab useful pieces and then forget where
they came from. The size 6 I have is pretty huge - I'm 6' and a 42" chest but
it still hangs off me - it really does want that BD underneath but then of course you'd cook. The 5 is a really good fit, what a fantastic jacket you have there
Windsock, envy, envy. It's hard to imagine guys big enough to need a size 8 fitting in a WW2 aircraft - maybe a Sunderland though, after going in the one at Hendon I was left wondering what they managed to fill it with.......

That's fine Ethan, I do the same but lately i've been thinking more about where pictures I collect come from and where mine are going... I haven't formed an opinion yet but I suppose that's life with the net.

WRT this jacket I have Andrew Swatland to thank for it- he is the source of all good stuff no??

I have a pre war that's slightly larger but typicallly is sans label and I imagine it must be about a 6- it's the one i'm wearing in my avatar and the fleece is quite lightweight compared to every other i've seen. They certainly are rare in these larger sizes. I spent the afternoon today visiting my old Mate who flew Beaufighters from Scotland. He never wore an Irvin but he would have to be still 5'11 to 6' so they did take them on in larger sizes!

I've also gone into that particular Sunderland and it is indeed cavernous!

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/Museums/Hendon/BritishWw2/index.html

 

[Smithy]

Surprisiing they made them smaller than that. Didn't the RAF have height restrictions? I know that 5' 4" is pushing it for modern British armed forces - I was right on the cusp when i considered Royal Marines after college. (jesus, looking back, that would have been a terrible decision.)

There were smaller. Vernon Charles Keough (known as "Shorty"), and an American volunteer was the shortest man in Fighter Command. Standing at a mere 4' 10", he required a cushion as well as his parachute to sit in his aircraft.

 

[Edward]

I'd assumed that later in the war and under pressure for new recruits (how true is the legend they could only have held out for another week in the Battle of Britain, had the Luftwaffe continued?), they may have relaxed certain specifications. I'd have expected more variation in ground based troops, though - they never conscripted into the Air Force, right?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

(how true is the legend they could only have held out for another week in the Battle of Britain, had the Luftwaffe continued?)

Seems to be quite true. Certainly that was Churchill's opinion/estimation.

bk

 

[Smithy]

(how true is the legend they could only have held out for another week in the Battle of Britain, had the Luftwaffe continued?)

The BoB's a big interest of mine as you may know Edward so I have to stop myself rambling on about it too much but in short answer to your question, the RAF really was on the ropes by the last week of August. It's now generally regarded that had the Luftwaffe kept up in its August raid priority of sector and satellite airfields, as well as other RAF specific targets, then chances are Fighter Command (or at least 11 and 10 Groups would've effectively been knocked out of the battle) as well as the command and logistical infrastructure in these Groups to function. In terms of how long a timeframe they could've lasted well that's debatable but it's agreed by most BoB historians that had this bombing focus continued the Luftwaffe would've broken the back of the RAF and gained air superiority over south eastern Britain.

Actually you can thank the accidental bombing of London on the night of the 24/25 August which prompted Churchill's ordering of the retaliatory raid on Germany, and subsequently caused the switch of German bombing to cities and London in particular, for the respite which saved the RAF.

 

[ethanedwards]

Battle of Britain

Hi Smithy, I wonder if you've read "the most dangerous enemy" by Stephen Bungay? What did you think of it if you have? I'd love your opinion on the Big Wing theory, but I suspect this is not the place for it! (I was amazed to find out the truth about De Wilde ammunition too, have you come across this?) To stay roughly on topic(?!?)I seem to remember that in one of Dizzy Allen's books, he mentions that he was unable to fit into the cockpit of his Spitfire whilst wearing an Irvin, although in the roomier Hurricane it was OK. I am relying on an old memory for this, so please forgive it's potential inaccuracy! I agree with you Windsock, Irvin Andrew seems to have powers not-of-this-earth when it comes down to acquiring stunning Irvin's..... how does he do it?

 

[Edward]

Interesting. I's always fascinated me, the idea that Hitler could have come so close to winning the war - had the Luftwaffe pushed ahead and not changed tack, and had they not opened up a war on the Eastern Front.... I never did understand why they did that, but then I guess by that point Hitler wasn't thinking rationally any more.

 

[Smithy]

Hi Smithy, I wonder if you've read "the most dangerous enemy" by Stephen Bungay? What did you think of it if you have? I'd love your opinion on the Big Wing theory, but I suspect this is not the place for it! (I was amazed to find out the truth about De Wilde ammunition too, have you come across this?) To stay roughly on topic(?!?)I seem to remember that in one of Dizzy Allen's books, he mentions that he was unable to fit into the cockpit of his Spitfire whilst wearing an Irvin, although in the roomier Hurricane it was OK. I am relying on an old memory for this, so please forgive it's potential inaccuracy! I agree with you Windsock, Irvin Andrew seems to have powers not-of-this-earth when it comes down to acquiring stunning Irvin's..... how does he do it?

Hi Ethan,

I have Bungay's book and although parts of it I agree with, to be honest I am not a huge fan of Bungay's writings on the BoB. Big Wing/Balbo-wise I very firmly belong in the Hope/Gleave/Deere/Johnson camp. I have the form up time figures for the 12 Group Big Wing compared to single or twin squadron form ups and they make for very interesting reading - especially when you consider how essential time was in intercepting raids with height and before raiders had bombed their targets. But we are getting off topic here (I'm bad at that!) Please feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this more, as the BoB is my big passion and I always love discussing it with other enthusiasts.

In terms of fitting into cockpits, if you have sat in a Spit you'll know it was fairly cramped in terms of width so very big chaps didn't have much hope of fitting in especially if wearing a lot of clobber.

And in terms of Andrew's collection I think it's fair to say we are all pea green with envy!

Tim

 

[aswatland]

I agree with you Windsock, Irvin Andrew seems to have powers not-of-this-earth when it comes down to acquiring stunning Irvin's..... how does he do it?

Thanks for the compliment. I have just been lucky and know a little about what too look for when buying an Irvin. It's great that more and more people are becoming interesting in Irvins on the forum.

 

[ethanedwards]

Size 5 Irvin

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]I'd certainly be interested.[/QUOTE]

Hi Doc, here are the sizes for the size 5 Irvin - hope they might be useful.
I'll do the same for the Size 6 soon.

[/IMG]

 

[Smithy]

Well done Ethan :eusa_clap

This sort of info is invaluable for those looking at original sizings and what might or might not fit.

 

[ethanedwards]

Battle of Britain

Hi Ethan,

I have Bungay's book and although parts of it I agree with, to be honest I am not a huge fan of Bungay's writings on the BoB. Big Wing/Balbo-wise I very firmly belong in the Hope/Gleave/Deere/Johnson camp. I have the form up time figures for the 12 Group Big Wing compared to single or twin squadron form ups and they make for very interesting reading - especially when you consider how essential time was in intercepting raids with height and before raiders had bombed their targets. But we are getting off topic here (I'm bad at that!) Please feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this more, as the BoB is my big passion and I always love discussing it with other enthusiasts.

In terms of fitting into cockpits, if you have sat in a Spit you'll know it was fairly cramped in terms of width so very big chaps didn't have much hope of fitting in especially if wearing a lot of clobber.

And in terms of Andrew's collection I think it's fair to say we are all pea green with envy!

Tim

Hi Tim, I enjoyed Bungay's book but probably because I am not that well informed?(As a boy I had The Narrow Margin but I never read a word of it - I looked at the photos and captions, over and over until it literally fell apart) I'd like to hear about those form up times, but I don't understand what to PM you is though?!?! Most of what I've read seems very critical of the Big Wing, from the memoirs I've read it's difficult to separate the understandable devotion to Douglas Bader with more objective reasoning.

Never been in a Spitfire, but I will one day- and a rear turret of a Lanc!
I've been in the cockpit of a Vulcan - the one at East Midlands Air Museum.
Don't think I'd have manage with an Irvin on, it was very cramped. Curiously there was no sense of being in such a gigantic aircraft - you could only see a little of the wing tip through that round porthole on the side. (Apologies to all for being off topic. Again.)

 

[Smithy]

Hi Tim, I enjoyed Bungay's book but probably because I am not that well informed?(As a boy I had The Narrow Margin but I never read a word of it - I looked at the photos and captions, over and over until it literally fell apart) I'd like to hear about those form up times, but I don't understand what to PM you is though?!?! Most of what I've read seems very critical of the Big Wing, from the memoirs I've read it's difficult to separate the understandable devotion to Douglas Bader with more objective reasoning.

Never been in a Spitfire, but I will one day- and a rear turret of a Lanc!
I've been in the cockpit of a Vulcan - the one at East Midlands Air Museum.
Don't think I'd have manage with an Irvin on, it was very cramped. Curiously there was no sense of being in such a gigantic aircraft - you could only see a little of the wing tip through that round porthole on the side. (Apologies to all for being off topic. Again.)

Hi Ethan,

In terms of PMing I think you need to have made 10 or 20 posts or so and then you'll be able to.

(Smithy veers off topic again!)...

There's nothing horrendously wrong with Bungay's book, in fact the German side of things in it is very good (which is hardly surprising considering he speaks fluent German so he has been able to read primary sources first hand). I just find him (and Deighton's writings on the Battle for that matter) to be slightly sensationalist. I think he's also playing up to the myths of the British side of things, sometimes to the point where truth suffers slightly for the myth, and objective history should be about the truth rather than the myth. I also think that some of his useful observations had already been made by Hough and Richards in "Jubilee History".

Overall "The Dangerous Enemy" is not a bad book to start with but anyone reading it should be aware that parts of it can be construed as a tad tabloid and others less than objective.

Speaking of Bungay, here's a thread I started awhile ago which has a link to the only known colour footage of a BoB dogfight with Mr Bungay adding his thoughts...

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=16007

 

[ethanedwards]

BOB footage

Crikey Tim, that's quite chilling - the idyll of that English Garden, juxtaposed with the life and death struggle going on overhead.... what went through those pilots' minds as they climbed up to 20,000 feet? I recognise Stephen Bungay here, not for a good reason though - on a documentary about Bomber Command, he talked about aircrew having to complete 30 tours before being screened, with the loss rate averaging 5% on each tour! Easy mistake I guess, with a camera in your face! Better stop this off topic though before I get barred.... thanks for the link,
Ethan.

 

[Smithy]

No problem Ethan and I'm pleased you enjoyed it. You PM me when you can and I can send you some things and recommend a book or two.

 

[aswatland]

Hi Doc, here are the sizes for the size 5 Irvin - hope they might be useful.
I'll do the same for the Size 6 soon.

[/IMG]

This Irvin is the work of Wareings.Wide belt loops and large collar rings.

 

[ethanedwards]

Irvin maker

Thanks Andrew, I was going to post the same kind of thing for a size 6 tomorrow, I'd be pleased for your opinion on that too, if you would? Am I right in thinking Wareings were based in Northampton? This jacket ended up here...

http://www.war-experience.org/collections/sea/alliedbrit/foster/default.asp

 

[ethanedwards]

BOB

No problem Ethan and I'm pleased you enjoyed it. You PM me when you can and I can send you some things and recommend a book or two.

That would be great, thank-you.

 

[jamespibworth@n]

Aero Pre-War

Good evening,

After waiting very patiently for my Aero pre-war Irvin it arrived Saturday.

When trying it on I found it to be a little snug in the body.

I wore it for an afternoon trying to decide if the fit was correct, and decided it was not.

Concerned about the fact that I had specified a slightly smaller collar I called Will at Aero.

We agreed the snug fit was due to the thick fleece and without hesitation said he would make another in a lager size and I should have it this week!!!

I find it so pleasing that this kind of service is still available and that there are companies who really want to get it right.

The Real Deal sheepskin is outstanding.

I shall post pictures when the larger jacket arrives.

James