Indicators of a low quality hat:

[jlee562]

Since we are picking nits, I think the welted edge thing needs to be delineated. The fact that the welted edge is prevalent on wool hats currently doesn't really speak to the quality of a vintage hat with a welted edge.

My assumption has always been that the prevalence of the welted edge on wool felt hats is that it gives the brim more stability, which is more crucial as wool tends to lose its shape.

But after spending some time looking at early brim patents, it's clear that welting was a labor intensive process.

1908 patent for the Sackett welt brim press
https://patents.google.com/patent/us934219

This invention relates to a mechanism for reinforcing the edge of a hatbrim by doubling the felt back upon itself to form a welt,-a style now coming into use, and already adopted in the hat for the United States Army. Heretofore the practice in general use for performing this operation has been to first form a reverse curl in the hatbrim edge by means of a curling machine, then to insert a matrix plate within the curl, then by hand labor with a heated iron to press the curl fiat upon the upper side of the matrix, and then with a hatters rounding ack to cut away the surplus brim, leaving an even width of reversed welt to be stitched down.

The object of my invention is to do away with the severe labor of hand ironing, and the expert use of a rounding jack, and to provide a quicker and better mechanical substitute, as well as to introduce other needed improvements in the art.

Another description of an earlier iteration of the welting process from 1908
https://patents.google.com/patent/us941746

The advantages of my invention will become more apparent when it is considered in connection with the manufacture of welt edge felt hats as produced before my invention, the old and common method being to place a partly shaped blank between two hot dies or blocks with the brim projecting beyond the edges, and to turn the edge of the brim over the outer edge of the upper block and hold it by engaging with pins, then to draw a cord around the pins and secure it to aid in holding the portion turned over smoothly in place, then after the felt had become dry and therefore set the cord was released, the material removed from engagement with the pins, the hat removed from the blocks, the edge was then roughly trimmed, and then the partly formed hat was again placed in the blocks and pressed. The hatwas then removed from the blocks, the edge carefully trimmed and stitched. It will be observed that at this time the foldedover edge had become set by the preceding folding and pressing so that the edge could be stitched. It will also be observed that all this preliminary labor and expense involved in placing the edge in condition to have the foldedover portion properly secured in place is avoided by my invention, so that, while the resulting product is superior in appearance, the expense and time involved in its manufacture is greatly lessened so that a superior product at less expense is produced. It will also be observed that the full thickness of the material at the edge is preserved and that the welt edge, while being of uniform appearance, is double the thickness of the brim.

While this is not dispositive evidence that the welted edge was or was not used primarily on lower quality hats, I think it stands to reason that any such generalizations about welts do not apply to pre-war hats, especially early iterations of the welted edge which seem to have grown from a need to add stability to the brim and create a novel finished edge. A costly and laborious process seems like something that would not have been used for low quality hats.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Since we are picking nits, I think the welted edge thing needs to be delineated. The fact that the welted edge is prevalent on wool hats currently doesn't really speak to the quality of a vintage hat with a welted edge.

My assumption has always been that the prevalence of the welted edge on wool felt hats is that it gives the brim more stability, which is more crucial as wool tends to lose its shape.

But after spending some time looking at early brim patents, it's clear that welting was a labor intensive process.

1908 patent for the Sackett welt brim press
https://patents.google.com/patent/us934219


Another description of an earlier iteration of the welting process from 1908
https://patents.google.com/patent/us941746


While this is not dispositive evidence that the welted edge was or was not used primarily on lower quality hats, I think it stands to reason that any such generalizations about welts do not apply to pre-war hats, especially early iterations of the welted edge which seem to have grown from a need to add stability to the brim and create a novel finished edge. A costly and laborious process seems like something that would not have been used for low quality hats.

Thanks, Jared. An intelligent and cogent discussion.
I agree with you, but how many pre-war hats are people just starting out in vintage/used hats running into? What about shoppers looking at the modern hat market? How many modern fedoras do you see with a welted edge that are quality hats? This was never intended to be a guide exclusively for pre-1960 hats, but the entire “vintage” market. My photos exemplars throughout the thread are clearly not golden era hats. I understand that while there are exceptions to many of my “indicators,” there are perhaps more exceptions related to welted brims. However, as I also include sewn together multi piece hat bodies and other indicators clearly not related to ... “true vintage” felt hats, I’ll stand by the welt as an indicator based solely on numbers of hats with them on the market.

I’ve repeatedly said that the welted brim is not intrinsically inferior to other edge finishes, or low quality of itself, but it is found disproportionately more on lower quality hats, wether new or used. I believe this is statistically true. I find more used modem Bollman hats that I do pre-war hats a all makes together.

Perhaps this is too convoluted for the intended beneficiaries of this thread. I certainly don’t intend to imply that vintage hats with felted brim edges should be avoided as low quality. I hope that the topic has now been discussed enough that a reader will be able to come to an accurate understanding of welted brims and how they relate to an indicator of quality. It’s not such a cut and dried marker.

 

[Bamaboots]

?

 

[humanshoes]

However, when I asked Rick at The Phoenix Hat Company if he offered welted brim edge treatments on his custom hats he told me he did not, and he went on to say that it was a brim treatment that he associated with cheap wool fedoras.

This is partly based on my personal experience with cheap wool hats that require a welted brim to hold any kind of shape at all, but also largely based on my own personal preference regarding the treatment as a whole. To me that brim treatment looks cheap even on finely made hats. It's a bias that I have that needn't effect the preferences of others. I know full well that many excellent hats, both old and new custom, have welted brims and if you like them buy them and wear them, but I'm not a fan regardless of the quality or price point.

 

[Who?]

There is absolutely no substitute for experience.

You can publish photos, write hundreds of “guidelines” and until you can pick a hat up, and immediately get a sense of its quality, and maybe it’s age, you are going to make mistakes.

Some acquire this quickly, and some never do. (as in all things)

Yust my opinion.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

There is absolutely no substitute for experience.

You can publish photos, write hundreds of “guidelines” and until you can pick a hat up, and immediately get a sense of its quality, and maybe it’s age, you are going to make mistakes.

Some acquire this quickly, and some never do. (as in all things)

Yust my opinion.

But it’s also subjective. My ideal hat with perfect felt is going to be (has been) sneered at as inferior junk. There are some folks around here with a lot of experience with fine hats, including some very expensive custom hats, and what they want out of a hat is completely different from what I want. To me, their pride and joy hats are overly stiff cheap feeling “modern” felt hats. I have no desire to commission an O’Farrell, as an example, yet others speak very highly of them. I’ve handled.several Greeley Hatworks hats and don’t care to own one. I’ve had a few Rand’s hats pass through my hats and I’ve liked them but much preferred custom makers who charge half as much and for my tastes make felt that blows those others out of the water. I’d bet most of Rand’s customers would prefer his hats to what I prefer even when we are taliking about the same style and dimensions and 100% beaver for both.

I originally started this thread. I abandoned it because even when we do agree on what makes a hat high quality there are so many exceptions to the rule that it stops being a rule. As an example, 100% beaver is not always better than 50% beaver felt and sometimes the hats without any beaver content are “better” than hats with beaver even when comparing hats of the same era. Add in changes over time and all the other variables and I gave up on this thread as being unworkable or useful. And that was before adding in the subjective part on defining what makes a quality hat. However, in my experience it’s not right to say that you know it when you see it or feel it. It’s so subjective depends on so many variables.

 

[Edward]

How about synthetic sweatbands posing as leather!

View attachment 235844

Argh, yes.... I love my Akubra Capricorns. My grey one, after a decade of wear, the surface of the pleather sweatband started to flake off, and left marks on my head when I wore it. In the end, I just pulled it out. The cloth underneath works well enough on its own. I well understand why they use pleather on what is, essentially, a plastic hat, but I wish they'd go for a grosgrain band inside. I suppose it's about giving it the same look as their felt hats with their leather bands, but it's a pity as grosgrain would be a closer match for the durability of the body.

I do not put words into Brent's mouth, but would offer that every hat wearing person has a first hat. My first hat was not vintage and certainly had many characteristics that would not allow me to keep it on my hat rack today. The hats at my local Big Box stores, at least up until my last visit a few months ago, are not junk, rather someone's "first hat."

Hopefully I am adding to the thread. Best, Eric -

Yes, I think that's an important point. This is a thing I see in many hobbies (it's strong particularly in the guitar market). I do think it's a good thing, on balance, to know the difference, what you're paying for if you buy a more expensive hat (or suit or leather jacket or tie or... or .... or....), as well as to recognise that not everyone has the same intended use in mind, the same resources (cash to spend), or the same interest. Hell, if we stuck with the very strictly practical only, we'd all be wearing onesies and either ballcaps or beanies....

I think it's about knowing the difference and appreciating "better", while also being able to see the point of a "beater" or an "entry level" hat. My first brimmed hat was a wool trilby from Debenhams, bought new in 1992 for a whole £20 (£41.01 in today's money according to the BoE Inflation Calculator.... by which token, the comparable quality wool hats at £25ish today are quite the bargain). Actually quite a decent little hat - but nothing like what most of us would choose now. I actually kept it for years, but it came time I couldn't hold onto everything for sentimental reasons, so I set the old boy free (via eBay) to find a nice new home where I know he's now being appreciated and worn regularly. (I'd half hoped for some years my nephew might show some interest, but now sixteen he's like his dad; clothes being solely for the purposes of staying warm, not being arrested, blending in, and providing pockets in which to carry stuff.)


Once or twice I've seen scenes where people had a small-minded, gatekeeper attitude to these things - completely different than what I see in this thread, though I have encountered it elsewhere in the "vintage community" - "How dare they enter best dressed wearing "repro"", "Oh, look - it's the 'Collectif Massive'" and all the rest. I've also seen the newbies who had either tried their best on a limited budget, or who were gradually easing themselves into a scene be hurt and not return.... and then those who'd effectively chased them off complaining - absent any sort of self-awareness - about the lack of new blood on their scene.... It's one of the great things about this place, IME: although plenty of folks here have amazing collections and clearly great disposable income to indulge in this stuff, even before I was able to afford or knew what was "better", I've never felt a sense of "you're not coming in here dressed like that".

 

[Edward]

Here’s a hat that checks many of my “low quality” boxes. It’s a Bailey. It’s fairly coarse. The sweatband is cheap. The build quality is low.

View attachment 236577 View attachment 236578 View attachment 236579

It’s all those things, and I love it. It’s been my companion on several fishing, hunting, and camping trips. It’s been worn on occasions and in circumstances that I wouldn’t have wanted to wear a high quality hat. It’s taken some abuse and it still looks good; its thick stiff felt is a strength rather than a liability. It fits well and is comfortable. It’s truly a lower quality hat (it is at least fur felt), but it fits a niche For me and I have no plans on ever getting rid of it.

I didn’t intend this thread to be a tribute to hat snobbery. I just wanted to help those following after me who are searching for quality hats to avoid the mistakes I made. If you buy a lower quality hat knowing what it is, and what it isn’t, that’s great. Even with all such hats that I own I’d still buy another if the right one comes along.

I would wear that to death! It's a great shape. As you note, there's a lot to be said for a hat you don't have to worry about, but still looks good. Notably, that seems to be easier to find in the Western genre moreso than a fedora style.... I wonder is that because people (at least in the US) tend to wear Westerns as utilitarian hats more often, whereas fedoras and such tend more to the dresswear - and a relatively niche interest at that - by comparison? I do have the general impression that there is a much bigger range of hats and hat qualities available in cultures that are still more "hat culture" than certainly mainstream England is by this point. Australia is notable that way - for the obvious climate-related reasons.

Ah yes, “bonded leather.”

The chipboard of the animal hide world!

My new favourite on Facebook spam adverts.....wait for it...…"Vegan Leather"....mostly from Chinese sources. I gotta give them props for creativity.

It's a funny old term. Immediately communicates a message, of course - "Imitation leather with no animal content but very much like leather in look and feel" ain't so snappy.... But yeah, I always find terms like that amusing. Halal Bacon (which is actually turkey-based) is another one I see commonly in my local area. It's harmless enough most of the time, I don't have an issue with it. It does, however, irritate me greatly when I search for "leather jacket" on eBay and half the returns are 'imitation leather', 'faux leather', or some such variant.

Makes you wonder if there really wasn't anyone at Stetson who didn't think this to be an exercise in pointlessness. A vegan sweatband on a real furfelt hat; really?

Ha! That is a classic. I'm guessing that is very much about upselling a pleather sweatband.... or perhaps there are people out there who don't understand how the furfelt is obtained?

Talking out of both sides of their mouths; it’s like saying “genuine“ and “artificial“ to describe the same item.

To each their own, but I’m an unreformed omnivore who has not problem with leather made from leather.

I'm with you on that. I believe it is important to respect others' ethical choices, but for me I'm fine with my place in the foodchain - as long as I in turn respect nature and only take from it what I reasonably need, while wasting as little as possible. It's one reason I like cow leather so much: at least ideally, that leather is a by-product of the meat industry (as is goat - globally, the most commonly eaten meat), so eat the cow, wear the cow (or goat) works for me.

This will no doubt stir some controversy: hats with overwelt or underwelt brim edge treatments are more commonly found on lower quality hats. If the brim edge is folded down and sewn in that position, or if the edge is folded up/over and sewn in that position, there is a higher likelihood that the hat is of lower quality.
YMMV.

Interesting one! The many exceptions to this are also interesting. I think this speaks to the wider point you made somewhere at the top of the thread that some things can be indicative of a lower quality hat because they are common on cheaper hats, but their presence alone isn't confirmation of low quality. A lot like the old Fender three-bolt neck design...

Fedoras now, Fedoras forever!

FF, FF as those in the MC fraternity might put it!

Grommeted ventilation holes in the crown. These are often found in outdoorsy hats and can help with ventilation. These vents are found in some very serviceable hats, but rarely found in higher quality dress hats. I also don’t recall ever seeing them in what I’d consider to be great quality felt. They are found in good felt, such as Akubras, but I’ve not seen them in high end felt:

View attachment 237628

They do seem to be something that are specific to more utilitarian work hats; I imagine largely because a more delicate straw might be the thing for dresswear in particularly hot weather.

Of course, I've also seen dressier hats (including Summer-weight bowlers) with delicately patterned ventilation, so that's also a fancier alternative to the big eyelets for more breathability in a working hat where you're more likely to be working up a sweat.

Here’s one that will possibly court some controversy: hats with narrower brims tend to be of lower quality. YES, there are many many many exceptions, but as a generalization And as an INDICATOR, I stick to this. Obviously, pre-war hats with narrower brims can be of extraordinary high quality, but those are rare finds. I’m referring to the commonly encountered hats in the used market.

This is a correlation issue: at the time when felt/hat quality was going down, beginning in the 1950s, brims were also shrinking. Fur for felt was more expensive, and fashion trends were toward stingier brims and overall smaller hats. The hat industry was in sharp decline and fewer men were willing to pay for a quality hat. It’s not that a stingy brim makes a hat low quality, and indeed there are some great ones out there, but stingy brims coincided with the overall decline in hat quality across the industry. For me, I’d say brims of less than 2 3/8 inches are most often found on hats of lower quality; particularly if the crown is also on the low side.

View attachment 237632 View attachment 237633

Personally, I like some stingy brims. My personal limit is a minimum two inch brim. Sometimes you can find them very cheap, and if you know what to look for you can also find some of reasonably good quality.

It'd be interesting to know to what extent manufacturers followed fashion by making narrower-brimmed, cheaper hats, and to what extent the fashion was directed by cost of production?

 

[glider]

I get e-mails from Stetson on occasion advertising there new hats. It has gotten to be very difficult to find out what the felt actually is, I rarely see them identified as fur felt and practically never as beaver. My biggest give away as to quality is in the sizing, if it's S,M,LG, etc. as opposed to actual sizes then it's a cheap hat. Perhaps there is a new process whereby a high quality felt can be produced from man made material. Nope, don't think so!!!! In fairness I must say that I have had some very nice vintage hats that had no identifying marks telling me what the felt actually was. In those cases it is assumed that they are fur felt.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Argh, yes.... I love my Akubra Capricorns. My grey one, after a decade of wear, the surface of the pleather sweatband started to flake off, and left marks on my head when I wore it. In the end, I just pulled it out. The cloth underneath works well enough on its own. I well understand why they use pleather on what is, essentially, a plastic hat, but I wish they'd go for a grosgrain band inside. I suppose it's about giving it the same look as their felt hats with their leather bands, but it's a pity as grosgrain would be a closer match for the durability of the body.





Yes, I think that's an important point. This is a thing I see in many hobbies (it's strong particularly in the guitar market). I do think it's a good thing, on balance, to know the difference, what you're paying for if you buy a more expensive hat (or suit or leather jacket or tie or... or .... or....), as well as to recognise that not everyone has the same intended use in mind, the same resources (cash to spend), or the same interest. Hell, if we stuck with the very strictly practical only, we'd all be wearing onesies and either ballcaps or beanies....

I think it's about knowing the difference and appreciating "better", while also being able to see the point of a "beater" or an "entry level" hat. My first brimmed hat was a wool trilby from Debenhams, bought new in 1992 for a whole £20 (£41.01 in today's money according to the BoE Inflation Calculator.... by which token, the comparable quality wool hats at £25ish today are quite the bargain). Actually quite a decent little hat - but nothing like what most of us would choose now. I actually kept it for years, but it came time I couldn't hold onto everything for sentimental reasons, so I set the old boy free (via eBay) to find a nice new home where I know he's now being appreciated and worn regularly. (I'd half hoped for some years my nephew might show some interest, but now sixteen he's like his dad; clothes being solely for the purposes of staying warm, not being arrested, blending in, and providing pockets in which to carry stuff.)


Once or twice I've seen scenes where people had a small-minded, gatekeeper attitude to these things - completely different than what I see in this thread, though I have encountered it elsewhere in the "vintage community" - "How dare they enter best dressed wearing "repro"", "Oh, look - it's the 'Collectif Massive'" and all the rest. I've also seen the newbies who had either tried their best on a limited budget, or who were gradually easing themselves into a scene be hurt and not return.... and then those who'd effectively chased them off complaining - absent any sort of self-awareness - about the lack of new blood on their scene.... It's one of the great things about this place, IME: although plenty of folks here have amazing collections and clearly great disposable income to indulge in this stuff, even before I was able to afford or knew what was "better", I've never felt a sense of "you're not coming in here dressed like that".

Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom. Aristotle.

 

[M Hatman]

It'd be interesting to know to what extent manufacturers followed fashion by making narrower-brimmed, cheaper hats, and to what extent the fashion was directed by cost of production?

I have wondered this for some time....especially after (and during) the war (WW2) when both rabbit and Cony were is short supply and labor costs were skyrocketing.

I tried to start a thread about this very topic when it got "merged" into a unrelated thread when the bartender did not understand what I was doing. I gave up after that.

I still have quite a few articles discussing the shortages from the 1940's through 1960, and how that and the labor issues (plus fewer men wearing hats) effected the industry.

Perhaps I will try again some day......

 

[belfastboy]

I would wear that to death! It's a great shape. As you note, there's a lot to be said for a hat you don't have to worry about, but still looks good. Notably, that seems to be easier to find in the Western genre moreso than a fedora style.... I wonder is that because people (at least in the US) tend to wear Westerns as utilitarian hats more often, whereas fedoras and such tend more to the dresswear - and a relatively niche interest at that - by comparison? I do have the general impression that there is a much bigger range of hats and hat qualities available in cultures that are still more "hat culture" than certainly mainstream England is by this point. Australia is notable that way - for the obvious climate-related reasons.




The chipboard of the animal hide world!





It's a funny old term. Immediately communicates a message, of course - "Imitation leather with no animal content but very much like leather in look and feel" ain't so snappy.... But yeah, I always find terms like that amusing. Halal Bacon (which is actually turkey-based) is another one I see commonly in my local area. It's harmless enough most of the time, I don't have an issue with it. It does, however, irritate me greatly when I search for "leather jacket" on eBay and half the returns are 'imitation leather', 'faux leather', or some such variant.




Ha! That is a classic. I'm guessing that is very much about upselling a pleather sweatband.... or perhaps there are people out there who don't understand how the furfelt is obtained?




I'm with you on that. I believe it is important to respect others' ethical choices, but for me I'm fine with my place in the foodchain - as long as I in turn respect nature and only take from it what I reasonably need, while wasting as little as possible. It's one reason I like cow leather so much: at least ideally, that leather is a by-product of the meat industry (as is goat - globally, the most commonly eaten meat), so eat the cow, wear the cow (or goat) works for me.







Interesting one! The many exceptions to this are also interesting. I think this speaks to the wider point you made somewhere at the top of the thread that some things can be indicative of a lower quality hat because they are common on cheaper hats, but their presence alone isn't confirmation of low quality. A lot like the old Fender three-bolt neck design...





FF, FF as those in the MC fraternity might put it!


They do seem to be something that are specific to more utilitarian work hats; I imagine largely because a more delicate straw might be the thing for dresswear in particularly hot weather.

Of course, I've also seen dressier hats (including Summer-weight bowlers) with delicately patterned ventilation, so that's also a fancier alternative to the big eyelets for more breathability in a working hat where you're more likely to be working up a sweat.




It'd be interesting to know to what extent manufacturers followed fashion by making narrower-brimmed, cheaper hats, and to what extent the fashion was directed by cost of production?

My experience as a hat maker dealing with folks with no experience in the world of hats is that many of them have no idea on the source of fur felts and how they are made. They have this idea that the rabbit or beaver is shorn and lives to grow more fur. I have to break it to them gently that neither animal survives the process.

 

[belfastboy]

I have wondered this for some time....especially after (and during) the war (WW2) when both rabbit and Cony were is short supply and labor costs were skyrocketing.

I tried to start a thread about this very topic when it got "merged" into a unrelated thread when the bartender did not understand what I was doing. I gave up after that.

I still have quite a few articles discussing the shortages from the 1940's through 1960, and how that and the labor issues (plus fewer men wearing hats) effected the industry.

Perhaps I will try again some day......

On a related note I have done some cursory investigation on what is creating the current shortage of beaver felts but no one seems to know or at least no one is willing to say why. It appears to be an amalgam of multiple reasons coming together in a perfect storm.

 

[M Hatman]

They have this idea that the rabbit or beaver is shorn and lives to grow more fur. I have to break it to them gently that neither animal survives the process.

Tread lightly there.......when the wrong people learn this, the ban on the use fur felt will also become law as it has with pelts in California and elsewhere. While this sounds outlandish.....we are living in strange times.

Then what will we do............

 

[belfastboy]

Tread lightly there.......when the wrong people learn this, the ban on the use fur felt will also become law as it has with pelts in California and elsewhere. While this sounds outlandish.....we are living in strange times.

Then what will we do............

Strange times indeed! I always stress that rabbit felts are a by product of the rabbit as meat industry and that by purchasing a rabbit felt hat you are doing the ecological right thing. Without the hat industry the fur would be tossed away. OK, I may be exaggerating a tad but it is at least a partial truth!!!

 

[belfastboy]

Strange times indeed! I always stress that rabbit felts are a by product of the rabbit as meat industry and that by purchasing a rabbit felt hat you are doing the ecological right thing. Without the hat industry the fur would be tossed away. OK, I may be exaggerating a tad but it is at least a partial truth!!!

but if the client is a vegan this explanation does not help at all. If they resist I advise them to find me a vegan fur felt and I will make them a hat from that.

 

[Rmccamey]

Let me throw a twist into the conversation. We seem to be focused on modern hats. How about vintage hats? For example, I have had half dozen 40s, 50s Knox hats in the last 5 or over 6 years. Most had dry or cracked sweatbands, broken stitches, cracked or torn liners, or loose brim binding stitching. The felt has always been good, but nothing that gave me that "ah ha" reaction. The comparable Dobbs hats I have had, have all been solid from the start, just like they came from the factory. I'm not making the claim that Knox hats are, or were, cheap hats. I'm just saying that, in my experience, Knox hats don't seem to stand the test of time as well as some other brands.

And before everyone piles on, yes, I understand that there are a thousand valid reasons that my Knox hats had these issues and, yes, this is a very small sample size. But how many times in our lives have we made judgements about quality, or decisions to purchase, based on a small sample size...or simply the recommendation of a friend?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Let me throw a twist into the conversation. We seem to be focused on modern hats. How about vintage hats? For example, I have had half dozen 40s, 50s Knox hats in the last 5 or over 6 years. Most had dry or cracked sweatbands, broken stitches, cracked or torn liners, or loose brim binding stitching. The felt has always been good, but nothing that gave me that "ah ha" reaction. The comparable Dobbs hats I have had, have all been solid from the start, just like they came from the factory. I'm not making the claim that Knox hats are, or were, cheap hats. I'm just saying that, in my experience, Knox hats don't seem to stand the test of time as well as some other brands.

And before everyone piles on, yes, I understand that there are a thousand valid reasons that my Knox hats had these issues and, yes, this is a very small sample size. But how many times in our lives have we made judgements about quality, or decisions to purchase, based on a small sample size...or simply the recommendation of a friend?

Interesting observations on Knox. Knox and Dobbs were both Hat Corporation of America companies so I would have thought they would be very similar if not the same. Were your Knox hats at the same original price point as the Dobbs and from approximately the same era? It could be that the Knox was a down market offering and inferior sweatbands were used, but you’d expect a Twenty Knox to be of the same quality as a Twenty Dobbs. I wonder if Knox went with another type of leather that time has revealed doesn’t stand up? Curious.

 

[belfastboy]

Let me throw a twist into the conversation. We seem to be focused on modern hats. How about vintage hats? For example, I have had half dozen 40s, 50s Knox hats in the last 5 or over 6 years. Most had dry or cracked sweatbands, broken stitches, cracked or torn liners, or loose brim binding stitching. The felt has always been good, but nothing that gave me that "ah ha" reaction. The comparable Dobbs hats I have had, have all been solid from the start, just like they came from the factory. I'm not making the claim that Knox hats are, or were, cheap hats. I'm just saying that, in my experience, Knox hats don't seem to stand the test of time as well as some other brands.

And before everyone piles on, yes, I understand that there are a thousand valid reasons that my Knox hats had these issues and, yes, this is a very small sample size. But how many times in our lives have we made judgements about quality, or decisions to purchase, based on a small sample size...or simply the recommendation of a friend?

I almost bought a Hyundai Pony in 1985 based on a friend's suggestion. Biggest bullet I ever dodged!!!

 

[Rmccamey]

Interesting observations on Knox. Knox and Dobbs were both Hat Corporation of America companies so I would have thought they would be very similar if not the same. Were your Knox hats at the same original price point as the Dobbs and from approximately the same era? It could be that the Knox was a down market offering and inferior sweatbands were used, but you’d expect a Twenty Knox to be of the same quality as a Twenty Dobbs. I wonder if Knox went with another type of leather that time has revealed doesn’t stand up? Curious.

My hats were from the same era, generally, but no, I don't have any two that were the same model or branding that I can tell. There are a lot of hats in the Comparison thread, but I have not looked for any trends.

Beyond critiquing hats today, I'm just wondering what criteria a man in 1940 would have used to differentiate hat quality to make a buying decision? We have a tendency to look at modern materials and modern manufacturing techniques (ie, mass produced) as indicators of lower quality, but in 1940, did men think hats made in 1890 were "higher quality"? Or, in 1940, was it more a function of price and utility where quality, as we think of it today, was much less a consideration?