Indicators of a low quality hat:

[Steve Henderson]

Most any hat originally marked and sold in sizes small, medium, large, etc. it’s very rare to find a quality that wasn’t sized according to one of the standard systems of hat sizing (e.g., 7, 7 1/8, 7 1/4, etc.).

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Yes this one hits home...my Bailey Jett is a 7 and 1/8. I consider it a better hat than others I have that are sized "medium".

 

[Bamaboots]

Just when I thought I’d been hanging on to a hat worthy of TFL consideration I find out it’s got one of those low quality hat indicators. I was thinking of selling this Portis with a near 2 3/4”, blind stitched under welt brim. Who knew. I still like the color.

I guess I’ll just hang onto it or donate it to the costume department at the neighborhood theater or something. It’s a 7 3/8 if anyone has an idea.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Someone should have mentioned that there were exceptions! Who forgot to do that?

 

[Bill Hughes]

Just when I thought I’d been hanging on to a hat worthy of TFL consideration I find out it’s got one of those low quality hat indicators. I was thinking of selling this Portis with a near 2 3/4”, blind stitched under welt brim. Who knew. I still like the color.

I guess I’ll just hang onto it or donate it to the costume department at the neighborhood theater or something. It’s a 7 3/8 if anyone has an idea.
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Definitely an exception to the rule. BTW I like the over and under welts.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Definitely an exception to the rule. BTW I like the over and under welts.

I do too. Some of the vintage welts are done so well they can almost pass as a felted edge. I’ve ordered a couple customs with welted brim edges just to have something different from a bound edge while still being more finished than a raw edge. Nothing intrinsically wrong with a welted brim.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Just when I thought I’d been hanging on to a hat worthy of TFL consideration I find out it’s got one of those low quality hat indicators. I was thinking of selling this Portis with a near 2 3/4”, blind stitched under welt brim. Who knew. I still like the color.

I guess I’ll just hang onto it or donate it to the costume department at the neighborhood theater or something. It’s a 7 3/8 if anyone has an idea.
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Wait! I'm confused!

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Welted brims are found on some excellent hats, including this Stetson Excellent New York LE. This is the hat that I put forward in the past as being the best fedora Stetson had made in recent times. It’s pure beaver, but more than that, the felt has a true vintage quality to it. I own two; I decided to give them a try after reading Moontheloon’s review. The underwelted edge adds to the overall character of the hat:

This vintage Stetson has a triple stitched overwelt. The hat is certainly not of low quality:

However, when I asked Rick at The Phoenix Hat Company if he offered welted brim edge treatments on his custom hats he told me he did not, and he went on to say that it was a brim treatment that he associated with cheap wool fedoras.

A welted edge is not a litmus test for a poor quality hat, but it is found so often on low quality hats that someone new to the vintage/used hat market would be well advised to look closer at the hat for other diagnostic clues if the hat has a welted brim.

In the early part of the 20th century hat companies made some marvelous hats using wool and wool blends, but wool is also a indicator of a low quality hat. It doesn’t by itself mean the hat is low quality, but it is a characteristic shared by many lower quality hats. This thread is all about INDICATORS of quality and not absolutes. From the beginning there have acknowledgements that there are many exceptions to these indicators. Is this really that confusing?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Hopefully this will be less controversial: hats that are loosely felted are an indicator of lower quality. If there are stray fibers sticking out of the felt (not to be confused with heathered felt), or if the felt is thick and spongey rather than thin and dense, this is a strong indicator that the hat is of low quality. It’s also a quality that isn’t always apparent in photos.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Poorly formed machine pressed crowns. Cheap felt won’t hold sharper angles:

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Grommeted ventilation holes in the crown. These are often found in outdoorsy hats and can help with ventilation. These vents are found in some very serviceable hats, but rarely found in higher quality dress hats. I also don’t recall ever seeing them in what I’d consider to be great quality felt. They are found in good felt, such as Akubras, but I’ve not seen them in high end felt:

 

[carouselvic]

but it also has a gold stripe on the sweatband? Broad brushes always confuse me. It's like fathers day around our house, very confusing.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Again, I’m only talking about brimmed hats such as fedoras, Homburgs, westerns, etc.

Hats where the body is made from multiple pieces sewn together are strong indicators of low quality. Quality hats, and even most cheap low quality hats, will be made from a single piece of felt. If you see where multiple pieces have been sewn together to form the body of the hat it is not quality.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

but it also has a gold stripe on the sweatband? Broad brushes always confuse me. It's like fathers day around our house, very confusing.

I don't need a cop to tell me I probably shouldn't park here.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Here’s one that will possibly court some controversy: hats with narrower brims tend to be of lower quality. YES, there are many many many exceptions, but as a generalization And as an INDICATOR, I stick to this. Obviously, pre-war hats with narrower brims can be of extraordinary high quality, but those are rare finds. I’m referring to the commonly encountered hats in the used market.

This is a correlation issue: at the time when felt/hat quality was going down, beginning in the 1950s, brims were also shrinking. Fur for felt was more expensive, and fashion trends were toward stingier brims and overall smaller hats. The hat industry was in sharp decline and fewer men were willing to pay for a quality hat. It’s not that a stingy brim makes a hat low quality, and indeed there are some great ones out there, but stingy brims coincided with the overall decline in hat quality across the industry. For me, I’d say brims of less than 2 3/8 inches are most often found on hats of lower quality; particularly if the crown is also on the low side.

Personally, I like some stingy brims. My personal limit is a minimum two inch brim. Sometimes you can find them very cheap, and if you know what to look for you can also find some of reasonably good quality.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

but it also has a gold stripe on the sweatband? Broad brushes always confuse me. It's like fathers day around our house, very confusing.

This obviously wasn’t intended for someone with your depth of knowledge on hats. Generalizations are useful when starting out, and if I’d have known some of them I could have saved myself some money. If someone is putting their first toe into the vintage hat pool generalizations can be useful. It’s not intended to be conclusive, but rather a slow down and look closer.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

No one is telling anyone anything. If you don’t need a primer for vintage hats that’s great. If you like wool County Gentleman stingy brim fedoras with overwelt brims and cloth sweatbands that’s great. If your experiences differ then add to the conversation in a constructive way.

The fact is, the world works on generalities, and we don’t have the time and/or resources to drill down on everything. You shouldn’t come to any important conclusions based on generalizations, but they can give us a place to start. If you’re past the point where you need such generalizations that’s great. Not everyone is.

Since there are almost always exceptions does that mean we can’t say anything? Fur felt is not always superior to a wool blend felt (think 2020 fur felt and a 1920 European wool blend), so can we not say that wool felt is generally an indicator of lower quality? That’s a generalization or broad brush stroke, but it’s also true.

 

[Bamaboots]

Since their are several examples of the “exception” to over/under welted brims posted, thought I’d post another. At least I assume it’s not a lower quality hat, though I know I shouldn’t make assumptions. At least when it was sold I understand it was well thought of though it is a bit rough now.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where are the actual lower quality examples that were spoken of. I’ve seen no examples other than an anecdotal one of welted brims being associated with lower quality wool hats. Not many of those are seen in this forum. I don’t ever recall seeing what I would consider a lower quality hat with a welted edge.

Stetson 3X Selv-Edge

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Why would “we” have examples of lower quality hats if that’s what we’re attempting to avoid? We all presumably know how to use Google.

However, here’s a selection of low quality welted brim hats:

We all know there are exceptions. However, a welted brim edge is a very common treatment on low quality hats. This edge treatment is often found on wool hats and on stingy brims; not all of which are low quality.

I also never said or inferred that it was indicative of low quality fur felt hat, just felted brimmed hats and this includes wool and wool blends. I wasn’t talking about hats that we see members posting; this was envisioned as a help to those new to hats (as said earlier in the thread). I’d wager that the majority of felted brimmed hats for sale right now with welted brim edges are what we would collectively consider low quality.

I don’t think this is really in dispute, but some people like to stir things up. I don’t mind the stirring, but you need to have some foundation If you want to make an argument. If the majority, or even a large minority, of brimmed felted hats with a welted edge are of lower quality (which is all I said), then where’s the argument? Who disagrees with this? Some people just looking to cause contention? Some people with personality conflicts or past grudges looking to pick an argument? Childish.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Ribbons and bows that are glued on. This can be difficult to tell from photos. Try to zoom in on the ribbon work and look for lumps behind the ribbon causing it to distort. If you have the hat in hand you can run your fingers over the ribbon and feel for the glue spots.

If the hat came from the factory with a glued on Ribbon and/or bow I’d say it was not worth considering. However, if you find one where the owner replaced the ribbon by gluing on another it might be worth a look.

Western leather cords or other crown treatments are often glued on in lower quality western hats. Many Shantung hats also have glued on treatments. I don’t usually mind this as the hats are cheap and I’m only interested in such for hard-use hats.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

but it also has a gold stripe on the sweatband? Broad brushes always confuse me. It's like fathers day around our house, very confusing.

Lol....me too...all these guys show up i don’t know???
B