I'm About to Order a Bill Kelso A2, Some Handholding Please Regarding Fit

[Vespizzare]

I'm just about ready to order a house A2 from Bill Kelso. I sent them an email with a few questions and just want to bounce something they said off whomever loungers care to reply. I already have three leather jackets that are big enough for layering and really do want a trim fit: something where if I had a sweater on underneath (other than light v-neck vest maybe), I wouldn't be able to zip it up. Anyway the guy at BK said that, to achieve a trim military WW2 fit like in my avatar, I should order two inches larger than my chest size. In other words, for a 38 chest I should order a jacket whose "pit to pit" measurement is 20". This sounds a little extreme but why should they steer me wrong? It's not like I can't exchange for size, but I'd like to just get it right the first time. BTW, for dark seal they recommended light olive thread.

 

[Grayland]

I recently bought a BK House A-2. It is seal brown with olive thread and it is beautiful. I don't think that the house model is available in dark seal. Some of the newer repro BK's are available in dark seal, but I'm under the impression that the house model is only available in russet or seal. I have a 39.5 chest measurement and usually wear a size 40 in jackets. I ordered a size 40 and it is perfect for me. I'm fairly trim through the midsection, so there is some extra room in the belly area. I could probably size down to a size 38, but the shoulders wouldn't fit me. I'm fit, but pretty average in shoulder width and I couldn't take much less than the 18-inch shoulder measurement of the size 40. A size 38 would be too small for me.
BTW - my A-2 zipper starts at the bottom of the jacket (don't they all?), so I'm not sure how the jacket in your avatar opens up at the bottom in a manner like a buttoned jacket such as the A1.

 

[Grayland]

Double Post...woops.

 

[Dr H]

The jacket in the Avatar (from The Great Waldo Pepper film) is a buttoned jacket (like an A-1), but with a later collar (like an A-2). I have seen designs for the jacket, but I'm now aware of how closely these are based on any authentic (as opposed to cinematic) jacket.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, a general rule of thumb is that a jacket that fits well (not overly tight or loose) will measure your size (for the example, we'll use your 38).
38" / 2 = 19" pit to pit
38" + 4" = 42" total, or 21" pit to pit.
I wear a 48. The pit to pit that works for me is generally 26" ( 48+4=52 / 2 =26)

That does not take into account a certain model/style and your desired fit. Just a general rule of sizing.

Scott

 

[Worf]

Great formulae there Butte, thanks I'll be using that. I've learned that all Size 54's are NOT built alike. I won't even mention that some folks' 2XL's fit like 3's and some 3's fit like 2's. I'm larnin' though... I'm a larnin'.

Worf

 

[ButteMT61]

Great formulae there Butte, thanks I'll be using that. I've learned that all Size 54's are NOT built alike. I won't even mention that some folks' 2XL's fit like 3's and some 3's fit like 2's. I'm larnin' though... I'm a larnin'.Worf

Exactly Worf! None are the same, hence, the tags are USELESS! Always use the numbers. Always.

 

[Phantomfixer]

And beware of the numbers....they are only as good as the guy/girl measuring!!! and that is assuming the measurements are taken at the same spot by two different people sometimes thousands of miles apart. I am envious of the guys living close to the custom A-2 makers, they can just pop in and all is well....my best fitting A-2 is a Cockpit bought off the rack in NY at the store...shame it is not the best quality, a work horse yes, rain, snow, wood cutting/splitting, pillow on a C-5, just not a BK or GW etc...
Good luck and enjoy the hunt!!!

 

[JollyGreenSlugg]

G'day Vespizzare,

I purchased a Bill Kelso jacket, which arrived several weeks ago. I have an unusual shape, due to having dropped around 140lbs over several years. I'm about a 41inch chest in a T-shirt, and wear size 32 jeans, and am a little loose around the middle. All that excess skin has to go somewhere!

My jacket is one of the house jackets, which I learn are based on the Rough Wear pattern. It is comfortable and has room to move. Like Grayland, I could possibly go down a size, but then the shoulders would be too tight. As can be seen, it has a bit of room around the waist, (like plenty of wartime photos show) but is surprisingly comfortable and allows me to drive and operate machinery. A smaller jacket may be too restrictive. In my day job as the workshop coordinator of an Australian railway workshop, I have plenty of active work to do, and as part of my A-2 break in process, I've been wearing it at work. I don't know that there are too many people who've driven diesel locomotives while wearing an A-2!

I'm thoroughly delighted with my jacket, and am already saving up for my next one, one of the original pattern jackets in russet.

Oh yes, my jacket is seal with olive thread.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Vespizzare]

G'day Vespizzare,

I purchased a Bill Kelso jacket, which arrived several weeks ago. I have an unusual shape, due to having dropped around 140lbs over several years. I'm about a 41inch chest in a T-shirt, and wear size 32 jeans, and am a little loose around the middle. All that excess skin has to go somewhere!

My jacket is one of the house jackets, which I learn are based on the Rough Wear pattern. It is comfortable and has room to move. Like Grayland, I could possibly go down a size, but then the shoulders would be too tight. As can be seen, it has a bit of room around the waist, (like plenty of wartime photos show) but is surprisingly comfortable and allows me to drive and operate machinery. A smaller jacket may be too restrictive. In my day job as the workshop coordinator of an Australian railway workshop, I have plenty of active work to do, and as part of my A-2 break in process, I've been wearing it at work. I don't know that there are too many people who've driven diesel locomotives while wearing an A-2!

I'm thoroughly delighted with my jacket, and am already saving up for my next one, one of the original pattern jackets in russet.

Oh yes, my jacket is seal with olive thread.


Cheers,
Matt

Thanks for this post which was especially informative to me. I too have slimmed down recently and am now down to "high school weight" territory. I want this jacket to fit tighter than yours and be the dreaded "fashion statement" which shows off my new bod. The only reason I post all this is to convey a tidbit of info regarding BK fit. The letter I received from BK said that their "house A2" was currently chest size plus 4 inches, whereas all their other jackets (which are more moolah and presented as more authentic or whatever) are chest size plus 2 inches. The letter also stated that, STARTING IN SEPTEMBER the house A2's sizing would change to be the same as all their other jackets. So starting then, they say if your chest is 38" you'll get a wartime fit by ordering a size 38, which will measure 20" pit to pit.

P.S. Thanks also for the pix showing what seal brown looks like. Their letter said the house A2 is also available in dark seal so that's what I plan to go with, especially because I like the contrast with the medium brown knits, which are all that are available on the house jacket.

P.P.S. Regarding my new diet, think berries not burgers.

 

[Grayland]

The great majority of bagginess (is that even a word?) I've seen on A-2's is in the midsection. Even if you get it as a second skin in your chest area, it is doubtful it will a second skin around your midsection as A-2's don't V-down as extreme as a half-belt. Even though I have an A-2, that has always been one of the reasons I don't like the fit as much as a I do a half-belt. The knits at the bottom of the jacket measure smaller than the bottom of the leather, causing the jacket to appear to pop out an inch across at both sides right above the knits. In addition, the extra leather in the pocket area also causes the midsection to "balloon" out a bit.
A-2's are great jackets, a classic look, but if you are really looking to show off your V-shaped torso - you may consider looking at a jacket other than an A-2.

 

[Aerojoe]

The great majority of bagginess (is that even a word?)

I just looked it up on the dictionary and it does exit indeed

I've seen on A-2's is in the midsection. Even if you get it as a second skin in your chest area, it is doubtful it will a second skin around your midsection as A-2's don't V-down as extreme as a half-belt. Even though I have an A-2, that has always been one of the reasons I don't like the fit as much as a I do a half-belt. The knits at the bottom of the jacket measure smaller than the bottom of the leather, causing the jacket to appear to pop out an inch across at both sides right above the knits. In addition, the extra leather in the pocket area also causes the midsection to "balloon" out a bit.
A-2's are great jackets, a classic look, but if you are really looking to show off your V-shaped torso - you may consider looking at a jacket other than an A-2.

I agree! This is my main issue with A-2s right now. My shoulders will fit badly on a Bill Kelso size 48 and then it happens that I have no belly whatsoever. The jacket right under armpits would look gigantic on me.

Sleeves can be easily fixed but not the belly area. I'd have to taper at least 10 inches.

 

[Aerojoe]

Well, a general rule of thumb is that a jacket that fits well (not overly tight or loose) will measure your size (for the example, we'll use your 38).
38" / 2 = 19" pit to pit
38" + 4" = 42" total, or 21" pit to pit.
I wear a 48. The pit to pit that works for me is generally 26" ( 48+4=52 / 2 =26)

That does not take into account a certain model/style and your desired fit. Just a general rule of sizing.

I always request dimensions of the jacket and never pay attention to size number. When I purchased my Cockpit G1 Mil Spec I talked to some nice guy from the factory and I learned that all of their jacket models had different dimensions for a given size.

Their G1 Mil Spec size 42 has different dimensions than their G1 size 42 vintage or their G1 Forrestal size 42. The latter BTW it's actually an ANJ-3.

 

[Vespizzare]

I'm glad I don't have all these issues. Now that I've gotten rid of my pot belly, I'm back to my usual "off the rack" dimensions. I don't have a big this and a small that. I'm like a 1940's recruit (in one respect anyway): generally slim. I'm hoping a BK house 38 (new post-September sizing) will get me where I want to go.

 

[Grayland]

I'm glad I don't have all these issues. Now that I've gotten rid of my pot belly, I'm back to my usual "off the rack" dimensions. I don't have a big this and a small that. I'm like a 1940's recruit (in one respect anyway): generally slim. I'm hoping a BK house 38 (new post-September sizing) will get me where I want to go.

I doubt any A-2 is going to be very trim around your midsection. They simply aren't cut that way. Take a look at the Good Wear Leather site. JC models all of his jackets and there are a bunch of them that are considered slim (in comparison to other models). All of them billow out a bit above the bottom knits. I don't have a potbelly either, but if I did, I could still fit in my size 40 BK. Even if I sized down to a size 38 BK, I would still have extra room in the waist.

 

[Jeff M]

i use the same forumla as Scott re; jacket size..albiet it approaching it from the other side.
To see what size a jacket is, I take the pit to pit measurement, multiply it by 2, then subtract 4.
So....
I take a size 44 jacket.
I generally look for a pit to pit measurement of around 24".

(24 X 2)-4 = size 44.

If you generally wear a size 38, I'd be looking for a 21" pit to pit for a standard fit.
(21 X 2)-4 = size 38

If you are looking for an oversized jacket....a size 40 would be a 22" pit to pit measurement.

One problem with upsizing a "standard" A2 size is you will be lengthening the torso and the arms.
May not be bad if you are taller than standard...but if not, it may get a bit uncomfortable ...mainly in the arms...with telescoping of the knits at cuff.

As Worf noted...a lot of an A2's fit has to do with the design...and the maker.
I have A2's with 23 1/2" pit to pit that should be a bit tight that fit fine, some with 24 1/2" pit to pit that are snug.
Generally the snugness is felt across the shoulders and in the arm pits.

As noted, A2 designs tend to NOT be "trim" across the midsection.
There are trimmer designs...but generally a "V" shaped design is not one you will find on an A2.
The "trimmest" fitting A2 design I own is this Good Wear I. Chapman & Sons A2 contract I purchased some time back;

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_ichapman_0001.html

John and I are approximately the same build.

The jacket in your avatar does look like a cross between an A2 and an A1.
The A1 design is trimmer across the midsection than the A2, the A1 fitting almost more like a fitted sweater....with capeskin (rather than horsehide/goat/steer) being the leather of choice as it is softer and drapes smoothly allowing a trim fitting garment. I wouldn't be surprised if the jacket in your avatar is made from capeskin.

 

[Dr H]

...and the blousiest GW A-2 around the mid section is the Security Aviation Togs (SAT) so give that a wide berth if you're looking for a trim jacket.

 

[ButteMT61]

The G-1 / M-422 series/type of jackets are better for the "V" shaped body with the bi-swing backs. You can get a tighter waist with a forgiving shoulder width. Look at old pics of A-2's on real servicemen. They're all over the place. We just expect more from a $1k custom jacket today. Like I've argued elsewhere, I think a "legit" A-2 would be simply sized in 38/40/42, etc with no alterations. Then it would be up to us to make our bodies look good enough to flatter the jackets lol

 

[Dr H]

I agree with Scott. My vintage AN-J-3 really shouldn't fit me - tagged 40 although not small - as I wear a vintage 44. However, it's a forgiving design and a flattering cut.

 

[Aerojoe]

We just expect more from a $1k custom jacket today.

For 1k I'd expect the jacket to be tailor-made for me [huh]