Hunting Hitler on the History Channel

[Trenchfriend]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=albert+speer+light&FORM=HDRSC2

And next to Goebbels, the above shown Albert Speer was an very important fact. A highly intelligent, unscrupulous careerist, kind of architectural savant, knowing best, to set loyalty over conscience.
Until his death disguising his involvement on the whole crime, relatively succesfull.

 

[filfoster]

Isn't the consensus about Speer now that he was the worst kind of opportunist? His self-serving apparent 'apology' worked during his lifetime but in the end, he was seen as a shallow opportunist without morals or scruples. It extended to his selfish personal life as well. His vaunted success as Reichsminister for armaments has been reappraised and found less successful, although I'm inclined to grant him some accomplishment there.
Maybe the brightest piece of glass on the Nazi dunghill. A government of thugs and ne'er-do-wells, like a state run by Teamsters (apologies to Teamsters, don't hurt me, please).

 

[LizzieMaine]

All the Teamsters I know are very nice people. It's the IATSEs you've got to watch out for.

Be that as it may, Speer was a weasel.

 

[Trenchfriend]

Isn't the consensus about Speer now that he was the worst kind of opportunist? His self-serving apparent 'apology' worked during his lifetime but in the end, he was seen as a shallow opportunist without morals or scruples. It extended to his selfish personal life as well. His vaunted success as Reichsminister for armaments has been reappraised and found less successful, although I'm inclined to grant him some accomplishment there.
Maybe the brightest piece of glass on the Nazi dunghill. A government of thugs and ne'er-do-wells, like a state run by Teamsters (apologies to Teamsters, don't hurt me, please).

Yes. A smart, high-intelligent careerist. Accepting and dealing with the whole SS-crime. He just seemed to be more intelligent, then all the others.

 

[MikeKardec]

Without the stache, he could be the Evil Dean in a wacky college movie made in 1980.

Very funny! Lizzie, your mind kills fascists!

 

[MikeKardec]

All the Teamsters I know are very nice people. It's the IATSEs you've got to watch out for.

Be that as it may, Speer was a weasel.

The Teamsters are nice people ... but somehow you always end up with more of them than you budgeted for!

Truly, if you buy them all copies of Shotgun News and RV magazines they'll be happy to sit in the cab of their trucks all day ... oh wait, that's what they do anyway.

On the other hand, the IATSEs will clean out all your lamps (bulbs) and gels and then sell them back to you the next time you hire them. Long ago I realized that "box rental" was just a way to get my old stuff back while paying for it twice. That said, most producers have little to brag about on the honesty scale!

 

[filfoster]

I realized I might stir up a shindy with the Teamsters reference. My aim was just to easily visualize Nazi Germany in terms we might more readily relate to today. I could have said 'thugs or gangs' but that didn't really get the nuance of it. My reading of the history of that period suggests that the Nazis attracted many folks (yes, also many educated, professional and successful people too) who were not on the higher end of the socio economic food chain. Many of their leaders, at all levels, were flawed in some significant way (Goebbels, physically, Ley was an alcoholic womanizer given to violent outbursts; Streicher was a crude, violent, womanizing ba***rd, Hess was, well something, wasn't he?, Goering was a drug-addled opportunist, you get the picture). Time Life books had a very well done volume about the 'regime change' in a smaller German town, I believe it was titled 'The New Order'. Some of the underclass men, the truck drivers (please, let's leave the Teamsters alone), street cleaners and clerks who had joined the Party early on were rewarded with leadership jobs. Multiply that throughout Germany and the picture emerges of the marginal types, many with sociopathic, even criminal backgrounds, getting the keys to the family car, so to speak. Not a pretty sight. That picture of everyday Nazi administration works for me: Often ill-educated, uncouth, frequently violent thugs, with two blind eyes toward crimes committed by their cronies, now lording power over their neighbors. I'm guessing the Soviets enjoyed a similar flavor, with more unpredictably fatal results than even the Nazis.
One of my favorite moments of "Mad Men' was the scene where Don Draper's showing someone around the office and described the firm by saying "We have more failed artists and intellectuals than the Third Reich."

 

[2jakes]

Without the stache, he could be the Evil Dean in a wacky college movie made in 1980.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I realized I might stir up a shindy with the Teamsters reference. My aim was just to easily visualize Nazi Germany in terms we might more readily relate to today. I could have said 'thugs or gangs' but that didn't really get the nuance of it. My reading of the history of that period suggests that the Nazis attracted many folks (yes, also many educated, professional and successful people too) who were not on the higher end of the socio economic food chain. Many of their leaders, at all levels, were flawed in some significant way (Goebbels, physically, Ley was an alcoholic womanizer given to violent outbursts; Streicher was a crude, violent, womanizing ba***rd, Hess was, well something, wasn't he?, Goering was a drug-addled opportunist, you get the picture). Time Life books had a very well done volume about the 'regime change' in a smaller German town, I believe it was titled 'The New Order'. Some of the underclass men, the truck drivers (please, let's leave the Teamsters alone), street cleaners and clerks who had joined the Party early on were rewarded with leadership jobs. Multiply that throughout Germany and the picture emerges of the marginal types, many with sociopathic, even criminal backgrounds, getting the keys to the family car, so to speak. Not a pretty sight. That picture of everyday Nazi administration works for me: Often ill-educated, uncouth, frequently violent thugs, with two blind eyes toward crimes committed by their cronies, now lording power over their neighbors. I'm guessing the Soviets enjoyed a similar flavor, with more unpredictably fatal results than even the Nazis.
One of my favorite moments of "Mad Men' was the scene where Don Draper's showing someone around the office and described the firm by saying "We have more failed artists and intellectuals than the Third Reich."

There have been similar attempts in this country to appeal to the working class on the basis of xenophobic nationalism and racism. The Know-Nothing movement of the 19th century, the "100 Percent American" Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s, the Coughlinites of the 1930s, the George Wallace movement of the late 1960s -- which was absorbed into Nixon's "Silent Majority" of the early seventies via the "Southern Strategy," and various other similar movements from the 1980s to the present day. Some of them used strategies that came straight out of the Hitler-Goebbels playbook: myths of national purpose being defeated by political "stabs in the back," the idea that the "producers" of society were being oppressed by decadent elites at the top and lazy, sponging "minorities" at the bottom, and so on and on. This sort of fascistic populism has been an unfortunately common thread thruout American history, and it's to the credit of the American working class that most of its members haven't been deceived by it -- yet.

 

[filfoster]

The contrast though, is that in Nazi Germany, these folks won and took control everywhere, with ruthless consolidation, and held onto it for over 12 years of brutal and corrupt administration. I'm thankful that the Father Coughlins and Huey Longs, and George Wallaces and whoever else we might equate with them were and are, in the end, shouted out of the public square. They don't acquire national power and thorough consolidation of a regime at all levels. The Nazis controlled virtually every aspect of public and workplace life and through informers, private life as well.
The point of my examples was to express wonder that an entire, modern nation was so thoroughly seized by a large cadre of socially disaffected, resentful and ruthlessly amoral, ambitious folks. That's a woeful wonder, indeed.
Equally sickening was the amoral aid of the 'March Violets' of lawyers and educated professionals who, in service of ambitious careerism, willingly joined the regime, however lately. It's appalling to read how many senior SS officers, many of whom led murder detachments Einsatzgruppen, in the East, were lawyers. Well, perhaps no surprise. And I'm a lawyer!
I'd have to beg off of a conversation on current events or even late-20th century examples. I'm afraid we'll soon be touching the third rail if we do. (Moderators, note: I'm not starting it! ). I apologize that I'm too old and tired for that. Besides, this thread's about the gen-u-ine, original, real Nazis, ain't it?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I simply bring up the various American fascist-like movements to offer a bit of context. There was nothing particularly unique about Hitler's brand of doctrine -- it sprung up out of the same sort of aggressive, incoherently angry nativism that was common here at the same time. Germany was what the US easily could have become itself in the 1930s -- and would have, if the McCormick-Hearst-Ford-N.A.M.-Lindbergh-et.al. Axis had had its way.

There was a real feeling among many in the US that Fascism was, as Anne Morrow Lindbergh put it as late as 1940, "The Wave of The Future." You could, that same year, walk thru working-class Irish Catholic neighborhoods in Boston or New York and see swastika flags openly displayed, but as in Germany this was largely a case of working-class anger being manipulated for other ends by more powerful forces. Hitler would have never have come to power in Germany without the support of that nation's industrial capitalists -- and it was that same class that tried to put those ideas over here.

So I think we actually agree on the basic point you're making -- Nazism had a very strong component of thuggish populism, just as the fascist-oriented groups here did. And I think we also agree that those elements couldn't have done what they did with the complicity of the "better classes."

 

[MikeKardec]

The point of my examples was to express wonder that an entire, modern nation was so thoroughly seized by a large cadre of socially disaffected, resentful and ruthlessly amoral, ambitious folks. That's a woeful wonder, indeed.

You are absolutely right and right to not want to criticize the teamsters. I assure you that my quips came only out of (somewhat irritated) affection. I worked with a great many Teamsters and, while they were loyal to their cause in trying to get you to hire ever more of them they were always there to make a move whenever you needed it and did their actual jobs with utter professionalism. Same with the IATSEs though I did find myself doing personal inventories of everything at random intervals. My experience with these people was on TV sets and it's very difficult to express the professionalism displayed by American union crews when compared to their counterparts elsewhere. The could do in 3 minutes what it might take other 30 to accomplish. That comes absolutely everyone from knowing exactly what to do.

I suspect that we in the US have never come close to the sort of conditions that created the great uprisings of Europe but, I'm guessing, that if we do you'll see the same crud rise to the occasion. The idealists ... and I'm sure there were some Nazis with ideals, though no one but John Rabe in Nanking comes to mind ... are usually quickly replaced by opportunists, unless there is a VERY strong rule book in place. Of course Germany was psychologically in terrible condition and the Nazis were just one of many symptoms of that. As usual, these are just things I'm thinking about and my conclusions of the moment, my opinion is always evolving and I respect anyone who helps me continue that evolution!

There are still plenty of people who feel that society should be ruled by "experts" who've been given significant power. I've never met one I'd want to be in charge of me, however!

 

[filfoster]

Mr. Kardec, I agree with you entirely. Mrs. Foster is the only expert I'd accept to be 'the boss of me'. And of course, Lizzie Maine, you have informed with your usual superlative pertinence, patience and tact. I am really glad that we all share an interest in these things that happened long ago, (in my parents' world: father was an Army officer who took part in Torch , the invasion of French Morocco, and the invasion of Sicily and badly wounded there but survived to father my brother and me) so I can opine in safety and comfort.
I remain afraid of the Teamsters. Poor Mr. Hoffa. Well, no. I'd be afraid of him, too.

 

[MikeKardec]

Oh and By the Way Jakes, the Hitler/Belushi cartoon is hysterical.

 

[newsman]

I love those other conspiracy 'black holes', UFO's and the Kennedy Assassination. So much information and theories, so you can believe whatever you want.
At least The History Channel program can be enjoyed as a parody.

It's really sad. The history channel had so much more potential to be interesting. But now it seems to be filled with odd reality shows about ice road truckers, pawn shops and other stuff. The UFO stuff is at least entertaining...but with thousands of years of history there has to be something more interesting than what they normally see.

We can combine your interests! In the 1970s there was a series of self-promoted books that suggested Hitler entered the center of the earth in a UFO.

 

[DNO]

It's really sad. The history channel had so much more potential to be interesting. But now it seems to be filled with odd reality shows about ice road truckers, pawn shops and other stuff. The UFO stuff is at least entertaining...but with thousands of years of history there has to be something more interesting than what they normally see.

We can combine your interests! In the 1970s there was a series of self-promoted books that suggested Hitler entered the center of the earth in a UFO.

Many UFO experts agree...that Hitler is alive and well and living in Atlantis, listening to live Elvis Presley concerts and having afternoon tea with Jimmy Hoffa.

I was hoping it was just the Canadian History channel that had degraded to such a dismal degree. Too bad the US version is the same. Yukon trappers, ice road truckers...yada yada, as the Seinfeld crowd would say. Dreadful stuff. At least they're showing Vikings.

 

[filfoster]

DNO, Vikings may make up for all the other dross. It's spectacular. Like finding a perfect diamond in a costume jewelry bin.

 

[the hairy bloke]

Sorry, Filo, old boy, but speaking as a Viking Re-enactor of over a quarter of a century, but this Vikings program fits right allong side all the other stuff.

A pile of poo.

 

[filfoster]

Sorry, Filo, old boy, but speaking as a Viking Re-enactor of over a quarter of a century, but this Vikings program fits right allong side all the other stuff.

A pile of poo.

I am sorry for that. Not to hijack this thread-we were hunting Hitler here- but I'd be interested in learning how it falls short. It's not presented as literal history but I'd think the basic costumes and culture would be in the ballpark. Is there a blog or online source that dissects it?

 

[Trenchfriend]

Luckily, Guido Knopp, the german "histotainer" itself, is retired!