Hugh Jackman hosting the Oscars - Black / White Tie

[Rachael]

regarding the size of the uber-carnation, my only thought when I saw was that in a crowd that size (how many dancers in total did mr Luhrman cram on that stage) it takes a rather substantial flower to stand out from the rest.

 

[Tomasso]

in a crowd that size it takes a rather substantial flower to stand out from the rest.

Is that what it takes? A florist? I was thinkin' it'd be talent......

 

[Rachael]

touche!

 

[skyvue]

I understand and appreciate your viewpoint, but I think fashion as depicted in the movies of the Golden Era has had more influence (and I mean that in a neutral sense, neither positive nor negative) on fashion today than any other source of info from those years.

In other words, more folks today have gained from movies what knowledge they possess of sartorial practices and attitudes in the 1930s than from any other source -- and perhaps more than all other sources combined.

So one can hew closely to the rules as they were strictly observed in those days -- and hats off to anyone who chooses to do so -- but to adjudge someone else harshly by century-old rules with which not one in a hundred people today is familiar is, in my opinion, tough justice.

And while I've no doubt that there was some creative bending of the fashion rules in 1930s movies, if wearing a white tie to a nightclub was really so egregious an offense at the time, surely someone would have objected to it -- before or after the fact.

 

[Tomasso]

I think fashion as depicted in the movies of the Golden Era has had more influence on fashion today than any other source of info from those years.

You're probably right, but I thought you might be interested in facts, not fantasy.

 

[H.Johnson]

I had assumed his wearing white tie to such an event was a sort of joke.

 

[Orgetorix]

I had assumed his wearing white tie to such an event was a sort of joke.

Not so much a joke as a costume. He demonstrated perfectly why white tie is, for all intents and purposes, dead as serious formalwear in the modern world. Don it, and everyone immediately knows you're going to do a song-'n-dance routine. It's sad, but it's true. Note that he wore black tie for the "serious" portions of the evening.

 

[skyvue]

You're probably right, but I thought you might be interested in facts, not fantasy.

I am fervently interested in both.

 

[H.Johnson]

Yes, I see it when put that way.

Not so much a joke as a costume. He demonstrated perfectly why white tie is, for all intents and purposes, dead as serious formalwear in the modern world. Don it, and everyone immediately knows you're going to do a song-'n-dance routine. It's sad, but it's true. Note that he wore black tie for the "serious" portions of the evening.

 

[Mrs. Merl]

I think it sounds a bit polarized to hear your opinions on white ties. I am really confused why you feel white ties are not something anyone should wear (unless they are a performing monkey.) Are there no events in modern society that would be white tie appropriate?

 

[Orgetorix]

I think it sounds a bit polarized to hear your opinions on white ties. I am really confused why you feel white ties are not something anyone should wear (unless they are a performing monkey.) Are there no events in modern society that would be white tie appropriate?

It's not so much a matter of what I think people should or should not wear, as much as a recognition of the state of things in the modern world.

There is a consistent trend in menswear that has been in operation for two centuries or more. What is considered standard attire moves to the realm of formal dress only, and then gradually becomes obsolete. Court dress was replaced by daytime tailcoats in the early 19th century. Tailcoats moved to evening formalwear in the mid-19th century, replaced by the frock coat for daytime. The frock coat died, replaced by (cutaway) morning coats, early in the 20th century. The morning coat became reserved for formal occasions only by the '30s, replaced by the lounge suit for everyday wear. Sometime around WWII, the evening tailcoat began to be pushed out by the tuxedo. Black tie is now the standard formalwear for events as important as Presidential inaugural balls and the Academy Awards, and white tie is virtually dead, kept on life support only in the most rarefied of social and diplomatic circles. Now we're faced with the approaching death of the tuxedo and perhaps the lounge suit after it.

Those are just the facts of the modern world, and that's what I meant when I called Jackman's (beautiful) white-tie outfit a costume.

Personally, I think there is a place for both black and white tie, as well as daytime formal and semi-formal dress. I own all four, and have worn them in the very rare occasions that they were appropriate. But it's getting harder.

 

[Chasseur]

This might sound heretical, but I think we should look for more opportunities to wear white tie.

I say with a bias, I love tails, in both the white tie evening form and morning dress day form. I'd like to fight in my own little way the demise of white tie in our society, just like I want to fight the demise of nice hats, etc.

I think it depends on the area you live and the social circles you run in. If you get invited to large number of evening formals each year that give the dress code: "semi-formal" "black tie" etc. I totally agree at a formal event showing up with white tie and tails complete with topper would not be good. Just like showing up 'underdressed' would not be good.

However, ironically, if you like in an area that has less formal events, I think you could actually get away with wearing tails. For example, at the opera I go to in my city people people go in a wide spectrum of outfits: black tie, suit, sport coat and tie, sport coat and no tie, aloha wear, jeans and T-shirt, shorts and slippers, etc. I don't think they would be any social costs to showing up in white tie and tails if you wanted to.

Same for most of todays evening weddings (I find I've been invited to more and more evening ones), unless you've been specifically asked to come in a certain attire, what I've always seen runs the spectrum of attire. How many times have you seen modern weddings with the men wearing black tie during the morning or afternoon? Or, people showing up again in a wide variety: suits, coat and no tie, etc. I see it all the time. Why not wear white tie in the evening to one of these if you want to?

I know this does not meet the traditional standards, but most of the style and clothing that us on this forum are interested in are not viewed as "normal" attire in today's ago: fedoras, high waisted trousers, cufflinks, homburg hats, etc.. Why not have a little fun when dressing up? Just my thoughts.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

In the movie, the trio of actors I cited were just wearing evening clothes for a night on the town; they were not attending any sort of formal event.

So the notion of white tie being extremely formal strikes me as likely a (relatively) recent development.

Those were actors in a 1930s Hollywood film. "Silver screen glamour" did not reflect the reality of life outside the movie house.


I recently read a mid 1930s Esquire magazine article bemoaning the demise of white tie and tails in the real world.

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[Marc Chevalier]

This might sound heretical, but I think we should look for more opportunities to wear white tie.

Are there no events in modern society that would be white tie appropriate?

There's one way to do this (in America) that no one on the Fedora Lounge has ever suggested. Ready? Here it is:


GET RICH AND SPEND RICH.


Yup: right here in the U.S.A., there are still plenty of town clubs, country clubs, golf clubs, cotillion societies, ladies' auxiliaries, etc. that have plenty of black tie dinners, dances, fundraisers, "smokers", and even (white tie) balls. But there's a catch: you have to spend a lot of money to be a part of them.


Of course, for nearly all Americans, a quality set of white tie and tails is a luxury they can't justify purchasing. (And forget white tie rentals, which look awful.) Even a tuxedo --of good quality and a cut which doesn't make you look like a waiter or violinist-- can be quite a bit more expensive than a business suit. Add to that the cost of membership in exclusive clubs that have frequent formal events, and then the cost of attending those events, and you've cut just about every American out of the picture ... perhaps including yourself, perhaps not.


So if you're rich, then your craving for formal wear and formal events can be handily met. If you're not rich, then go make some money. After all, what's the use of having a great, inexpensive set of vintage tails if you don't have any appropriate (as opposed to costume-y) event at which to wear it?


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[skyvue]

Orgetorix's post is a wise one. As he points out, fashions and sartorial standards are in constant flux, and no set of rules, as much as we might like it to, remains hard and fast. So if we're going to say, "This is how it must be done -- these are the rules that must be followed," we'd better have a pretty clear idea which set of rules we're referring to, because the times, they are always a-changing.

Those were actors in a 1930s Hollywood film. "Silver screen glamour" did not reflect the reality of life outside the movie house.

Of course Hollywood traffics in fantasy, but why would a costume designer and three actors of some prominence conspire to go against a standard of formal attire that some here would have us believe was carved in stone? Wouldn't it would have been scandalous or, at the very least, caused something of a stir to have not one, not two, but three different characters wear the "wrong" tie with their black tails?

Or is your point that there was such a huge divide in those days between the upper crust who cared about such matters and the hoi polloi who patronized the movies then that the unscrubbed masses simply didn't know the difference, ignorant miserables that they were?

If that's your point, fair enough, though I still don't know what would have been gained by the subbing in of white ties to accompany those three sets of black tails -- surely there were some available black ties in the Warner Bros. costume department.

Me, I love to learn about the arcane rules and practices of other eras, and sometimes I strive to observe them for the fun of it, but I won't allow them to cause me to lose a wink of sleep. Given the likelihood I'll never be invited to a truly white-tie event, if I ever have an inclination to wear a white tie with my black tails (neither of which I even own, currently, as my only formal wear is a 1950s tux with -- gasp! -- a shawl collar), I'll take the plunge and endure the tsk-tsk's and disapprobation to which I'm likely to be subjected.

If it's good enough for Frank McHugh, not to mention Gene Raymond, it's darned well good enough for me.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Of course Hollywood traffics in fantasy, but why would a costume designer and three actors of some prominence conspire to go against a standard of formal attire that some here would have us believe was carved in stone?

For the same reason that '30s Hollywood films showed actors lounging in movie set "hotels", "nightclubs" and "penthouses" that were more elaborate than nearly anything existing at the time.


As Esquire magazine noted back then, white tie and tails were disappearing from the social scene. Nonetheless, movie audiences appreciated seeing them onscreen ... just as they enjoyed watching Jean Harlow lounging about "at home" in $2,000 dressing gowns with fur collars. (The truth is that '30s movie stars tended to wear sweatshirts at home, but that's a different story.)


Here's part of the movie you saw (with Portuguese subtitles, no less!) Let the Fedora Loungers judge for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2gkHnE1Y7w&feature=related


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[Lensmaster]

Comments on a couple of points. To a point movies do exaggerate the real world. But there there have always been a lot of movies that reflect what is happening in society. many contemporary movies have people dressed they way they would in the situations the characters were involved. Movies in the 1930's show that world that the Esquire article was bemoaning. When it once was expected that anyone with the means to go out in the evening would wear white tie, by the thirties many men were wearing tuxedo's instead. This seemed to be a time when either was accepted, usually older men tending toward white tie and younger men toward black tie. By the fifties black tie had pretty much taken over as social evening attire, white tie being reserved for specific formal events.

My other thought is that even though it would look out of place to wear white tie in many situations today there is no reason to let white tie die. I love white tie. I don't own it yet because my finances don't allow me to buy something I don't really have reason to wear. But whenever it is I have the means to buy it I will find reasons to wear white tie. I may even hold a party or event where people won't be required to wear white tie, but encourage men to wear whatever the most formal thing they own or would like to acquire. With the understanding that the host will be wearing white tie and it would not be out of place to wear at least a tuxedo. And what's to stop a number of us style aware men to get together at a nice club in our most formal black tie and white tie if we have it to socialize. Show people how nice it looks.

 

[skyvue]

When it once was expected that anyone with the means to go out in the evening would wear white tie, by the thirties many men were wearing tuxedo's instead.

See, that goes against the point that I thought many were making here (though it's entirely possible I've completely misunderstood -- it wouldn't be the first time) -- that a white tie was NOT to be worn when a gentleman was merely "going out in the evening", that it was to be reserved for much more formal occasions.

In the oft-cited (and now linked-to) movie, all three gentlemen are merely out for the evening -- none is attending a formal affair. But all three wear white ties with black tails.

So when Jackman (to return to the original subject of this thread) switched to a white tie to accompany his tux during the Oscar telecast, which rule did he break? What exactly was his faux pas? Was it that he wore a white tie (regardless of the coat he was wearing) at a less than formal affair? Was it that he wore a white tie with a tuxedo? And if the latter, is this always inappropriate? Are white ties meant to be worn only with some variety of tailcoat?

 

[Fletch]

Even a tuxedo --of good quality and a cut which doesn't make you look like a waiter or violinist-- can be quite a bit more expensive than a business suit.

Joe Venuti would like to know what's the matter with looking like a violinist.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

So when Jackman (to return to the original subject of this thread) switched to a white tie to accompany his tux during the Oscar telecast, which rule did he break? What exactly was his faux pas? Was it that he wore a white tie (regardless of the coat he was wearing) at a less than formal affair? Was it that he wore a white tie with a tuxedo? And if the latter, is this always inappropriate? Are white ties meant to be worn only with some variety of tailcoat?

Now I understand the source of this misunderstanding, Skyvue

There is a difference between "white tie" and "a white tie."

When we say "white tie", we're referring to the entire ensemble: white bowtie, wing collar shirt, white waistcoat, black or midnight blue tailcoat and trousers, etc.

No one here said (much less complained) that Jackman wore a white (bow)tie with his tuxedo. The comments here referred to Jackman's use of "white tie" as I described it above.

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