Naphtali
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Jump School at Fort Benning was a three-week course. It's gotten easier?
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How tough is basic training these days?
- Thread starter Naphtali
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carebear
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Jump school was 3 weeks in '94.
I wasn't impressed, they could have gotten it done in 2 if they wanted to (or if the Marines were running it). <-joke
The training day was too short, the PT was a joke, and the lack of discipline, initiative and motivation among the fresh from Boot Army kids was frightening. I was pretty easy-going and lazy as Marine LCpls go, but these kids had me on my last nerve with their BS. On breaks they collapsed instead of straightening up their uniforms, they didn't want to polish their boots or iron their uniforms and they wouldn't obey the chain of command (when an E-3 says get outside and you're an E-1, you do it, you don't ask "Who said we have to?"). There was a Gunny there, fresh off the drill field and he about went insane.
It probably wasn't a coincidence that when they ran out of Army NCO students the leadership billets went to we Marines, regardless of rank.
When me and my buddy checked in one of the black hats (a Ranger MSgt) pulled us, the Ranger candidates and the other "sister service" personnel (a smattering of Marine recon/sniper types and Navy EOD and SBU guys, no BUD's or AF in our platoon) aside to let us know we'd need to do additional PT as the class wouldn't do enough to even maintain our current levels. That was gospel as it turned out.
I think part of the problem is they apparently give (gave?) out Airborne school slots as "perks" to folks who'd never have a jump billet in their career. It's lost it's "elite" cachet and mentality. Kids were there straight out of boot who weren't even going to an Airborne unit, they got the slot as a recruiting bonus, if they were to be believed.
The black hats did their best but they couldn't enforce anything resembling discipline due to stupid regulations (no more than 10 pushups at a time for punishment :eusa_doh: ) and, according to many of the locked-on Army NCO's both students and staff, Army Basic does little or nothing to force bearing or discipline on these young yahoos. If they don't go in wanting it, it won't happen. Most of them apparently don't get their first experience with what being a soldier (ie a professional warrior) is about until they hit their first unit. If that unit is slack, they'll never get it.
On the whole, I wasn't impressed.
I wasn't impressed, they could have gotten it done in 2 if they wanted to (or if the Marines were running it). <-joke
The training day was too short, the PT was a joke, and the lack of discipline, initiative and motivation among the fresh from Boot Army kids was frightening. I was pretty easy-going and lazy as Marine LCpls go, but these kids had me on my last nerve with their BS. On breaks they collapsed instead of straightening up their uniforms, they didn't want to polish their boots or iron their uniforms and they wouldn't obey the chain of command (when an E-3 says get outside and you're an E-1, you do it, you don't ask "Who said we have to?"). There was a Gunny there, fresh off the drill field and he about went insane.
It probably wasn't a coincidence that when they ran out of Army NCO students the leadership billets went to we Marines, regardless of rank.
When me and my buddy checked in one of the black hats (a Ranger MSgt) pulled us, the Ranger candidates and the other "sister service" personnel (a smattering of Marine recon/sniper types and Navy EOD and SBU guys, no BUD's or AF in our platoon) aside to let us know we'd need to do additional PT as the class wouldn't do enough to even maintain our current levels. That was gospel as it turned out.
I think part of the problem is they apparently give (gave?) out Airborne school slots as "perks" to folks who'd never have a jump billet in their career. It's lost it's "elite" cachet and mentality. Kids were there straight out of boot who weren't even going to an Airborne unit, they got the slot as a recruiting bonus, if they were to be believed.
The black hats did their best but they couldn't enforce anything resembling discipline due to stupid regulations (no more than 10 pushups at a time for punishment :eusa_doh: ) and, according to many of the locked-on Army NCO's both students and staff, Army Basic does little or nothing to force bearing or discipline on these young yahoos. If they don't go in wanting it, it won't happen. Most of them apparently don't get their first experience with what being a soldier (ie a professional warrior) is about until they hit their first unit. If that unit is slack, they'll never get it.
On the whole, I wasn't impressed.
Harp
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carebear
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I should reiterate, this was '94 so it may have tightened back up, both Airborne and Army boot before it.
The problems I saw were primarily the fresh faces, though my first impression was on the the initial run (3 miles?) and was more catholic. Out of a couple hundred students there were dozens of drops including officers (I counted to pass the time) and it was a slooooow pace, 8-10 minute miles? The staff hit the finish and then tacked on an additional 1/8th mile, many of the drops at that point were accompanied by whiny "but... we ran the full course". [huh]
Other things that stuck out. When we headed back for chow and were dismissed, many of the kids tromped into the barracks without brushing the sawdust off of their uniforms and then wondered why they got yelled at and weren't cut loose without a field day. This happened all through the course, they just couldn't get the idea.
When we'd fall out in the AM it was foggy and chilly (40s-50s?). Half the class would fall out with their field jackets on, which meant we all had to put them on, which means we had to wear them on the run to the training area, nice and sweaty. Even worse, we had to wear them, zipped up mind you, on the run back, at noon, in Georgia, in the Spring.
Again, no matter how many times we explained to the little sissies that they'd only be chilly for a few minutes and reminded them how hot and uncomfortable they'd be the rest of the morning, they couldn't put two and two together. They didn't have the sack to be a little cold in return for greater comfort later, when it mattered.
I'd tell my squad they needed to polish their boots before hitting the rack so they'd be done for the morning and I'd get boot privates telling me, an E-3 Recon ATL, that they didn't have to do what I said because I wasn't an NCO. When I told them it was an order from the Gunny, they'd pop off with "well, he didn't tell ME that". So I'd go get him, better he have to explain the strangled body than young LCpl Carberry.
They couldn't stay in step when marching (without constant cadence calling) and they called out stuff in formation runs on jodies. Though I learned that (the Jodie riffing) was an Army thing.
They just took too much time getting from point to point and didn't pay attention in class (this at a school that involved plummeting to earth). If the students had been more locked on they could have done ground week in an actual week and cracked out the jumps the next. Heck, dive school only takes 3 weeks and that has classroom instruction on gasses and a lot more prac app.
The problems I saw were primarily the fresh faces, though my first impression was on the the initial run (3 miles?) and was more catholic. Out of a couple hundred students there were dozens of drops including officers (I counted to pass the time) and it was a slooooow pace, 8-10 minute miles? The staff hit the finish and then tacked on an additional 1/8th mile, many of the drops at that point were accompanied by whiny "but... we ran the full course". [huh]
Other things that stuck out. When we headed back for chow and were dismissed, many of the kids tromped into the barracks without brushing the sawdust off of their uniforms and then wondered why they got yelled at and weren't cut loose without a field day. This happened all through the course, they just couldn't get the idea.
When we'd fall out in the AM it was foggy and chilly (40s-50s?). Half the class would fall out with their field jackets on, which meant we all had to put them on, which means we had to wear them on the run to the training area, nice and sweaty. Even worse, we had to wear them, zipped up mind you, on the run back, at noon, in Georgia, in the Spring.
Again, no matter how many times we explained to the little sissies that they'd only be chilly for a few minutes and reminded them how hot and uncomfortable they'd be the rest of the morning, they couldn't put two and two together. They didn't have the sack to be a little cold in return for greater comfort later, when it mattered.
I'd tell my squad they needed to polish their boots before hitting the rack so they'd be done for the morning and I'd get boot privates telling me, an E-3 Recon ATL, that they didn't have to do what I said because I wasn't an NCO. When I told them it was an order from the Gunny, they'd pop off with "well, he didn't tell ME that". So I'd go get him, better he have to explain the strangled body than young LCpl Carberry.
They couldn't stay in step when marching (without constant cadence calling) and they called out stuff in formation runs on jodies. Though I learned that (the Jodie riffing) was an Army thing.
They just took too much time getting from point to point and didn't pay attention in class (this at a school that involved plummeting to earth). If the students had been more locked on they could have done ground week in an actual week and cracked out the jumps the next. Heck, dive school only takes 3 weeks and that has classroom instruction on gasses and a lot more prac app.
Martinis at 8
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carebear said:
Well sort of. According to my son they have reverted. The attrition rate now is very high. Some arrive unprepared, like they can't pass the APFT (fitness test), so they get thrown out. Others get dismissed for "disrespect". Huh? Disrespect in my day usually got you so much punishment you wished you were dead. Ebb and flow, I guess.
M8
carebear
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I think all they have left is the ultimate sanction, dismissal, because the Mother's of America don't want little Johnny doing pushups until he pukes himself anymore.
To avoid the infrequent abuses they throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If we or any of the Navy guys got dropped by a blackhat we all dropped. At 10 pushups and then a mandatory stand why not? We were in fact threatened with a write-up or dismissal because we would drop and do the standard 25 instead of 10, so we had to cut back.
That and saying "aye aye" instead of "yes" in response to directions by "Sgt. Airborne". That pushed some buttons. As did always using, in the Marine fashion, the NCO's full rank instead of just "Sgt." Though that was less deliberate pushing buttons than long habit.
To avoid the infrequent abuses they throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If we or any of the Navy guys got dropped by a blackhat we all dropped. At 10 pushups and then a mandatory stand why not? We were in fact threatened with a write-up or dismissal because we would drop and do the standard 25 instead of 10, so we had to cut back.
That and saying "aye aye" instead of "yes" in response to directions by "Sgt. Airborne". That pushed some buttons. As did always using, in the Marine fashion, the NCO's full rank instead of just "Sgt." Though that was less deliberate pushing buttons than long habit.
DELTA0321
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Airborne
I can echo carebear's remarks about Airborne school in the early 90's timeframe. Going through that course as a Marine, I noted that the majority of Army students seemed to still be in their basic training pipeline, ie basic, AIT, Airborne, perhaps others before getting actually assigned to a unit somewhere. My guess is that fact contributed to the majority attitude of waiting to be told what to do and then many times only performing at a minimum level. I think the folks running the training "the blackhats" quite enjoyed the Marines/Navy folks who poked some fun at the system by over PT-ing etc, & yet who also seemed to be the ones they looked to to put in charge whenever possible regardless of rank.
Back to the thread topic, I happened to be a 2d generation student at jump school, attending in 1991 when my father did in 1942. What stories I've heard from him, looking at his official scrap book from his unit & what little research I've done shows that the units were raised in the huge mobilization for WW2, went through their initial training, airborne school, follow-on tactical training - machine gunnery or whatnot, and then deployed: all essentially as a unit. The emergency of the times, the all-in-it-together idea & the complete mobilization of the entire country made this a very different experience than what we see today. All those, but particularly going through training as a unit, I think reduced the over-use of "mikey mouse drills" to a minimum. I also think the generation who fought that war, coming out of the great depression here, probably needed a bit less breaking-in to a soldier's mind set than the average young American today. Please before any one shoots at me, I firmly believe that those young Americans who today volunteer to serve are far above average in a lot of ways.
I served a tour as a Marine DI right before Desert Storm, also a later formal school instructor tour. I know that the official rules for DI conduct were well nigh impossible to follow and achieve the level of performance demanded of the recruit platoons. I also know at my later school tour, that the students who had already been in a unit (and presumably had an NCO ready to hand out harsh penalties for failure to graduate upon their return) did much better than those who were guaranteed the school by their recuiting contract & were still in their initial training pipeline.
It would be interesting to hear from any current DI's / DS's / TS's/ CC's after four years of war how things have changed.
v/r
Steve
I can echo carebear's remarks about Airborne school in the early 90's timeframe. Going through that course as a Marine, I noted that the majority of Army students seemed to still be in their basic training pipeline, ie basic, AIT, Airborne, perhaps others before getting actually assigned to a unit somewhere. My guess is that fact contributed to the majority attitude of waiting to be told what to do and then many times only performing at a minimum level. I think the folks running the training "the blackhats" quite enjoyed the Marines/Navy folks who poked some fun at the system by over PT-ing etc, & yet who also seemed to be the ones they looked to to put in charge whenever possible regardless of rank.
Back to the thread topic, I happened to be a 2d generation student at jump school, attending in 1991 when my father did in 1942. What stories I've heard from him, looking at his official scrap book from his unit & what little research I've done shows that the units were raised in the huge mobilization for WW2, went through their initial training, airborne school, follow-on tactical training - machine gunnery or whatnot, and then deployed: all essentially as a unit. The emergency of the times, the all-in-it-together idea & the complete mobilization of the entire country made this a very different experience than what we see today. All those, but particularly going through training as a unit, I think reduced the over-use of "mikey mouse drills" to a minimum. I also think the generation who fought that war, coming out of the great depression here, probably needed a bit less breaking-in to a soldier's mind set than the average young American today. Please before any one shoots at me, I firmly believe that those young Americans who today volunteer to serve are far above average in a lot of ways.
I served a tour as a Marine DI right before Desert Storm, also a later formal school instructor tour. I know that the official rules for DI conduct were well nigh impossible to follow and achieve the level of performance demanded of the recruit platoons. I also know at my later school tour, that the students who had already been in a unit (and presumably had an NCO ready to hand out harsh penalties for failure to graduate upon their return) did much better than those who were guaranteed the school by their recuiting contract & were still in their initial training pipeline.
It would be interesting to hear from any current DI's / DS's / TS's/ CC's after four years of war how things have changed.
v/r
Steve
Naphtali
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Carebear: There was a work-around at Ft. Wood for the ten push-up rule. I had to do 173 while standing in the chow line one afternoon -- my boots were not within the yellow painted boot marks.
"Do ten; come to attention; and do ten more. Keep doing this until I get tired." He didn't get tired.
"Do ten; come to attention; and do ten more. Keep doing this until I get tired." He didn't get tired.
carebear
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Naphtali said:
I suggested that once. Apparently they got chewed out by the zeros if they got caught.
MagistrateChris
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Back in my day, I had an evil black hat who apparently liked the 10 rule. He'd drop you to the front leaning rest position, then wait a minute or two and shout "Down" wait a while, the call out "Up". 10 push up s could take five or twn minutes to complete, depending on his mood. that put a pump on the old arms.
But remember, there was no training as tough as it used to be, back in your day, no matter when you served.
But remember, there was no training as tough as it used to be, back in your day, no matter when you served.
Naphtali
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During World War II wasn't Ranger training, or its equivalent, folded into Jump School? And wasn't Jump School something like 26 weeks rather than three, plus how many for the now-separate Ranger School?
Fletch
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That all depends. I suppose if you came at it from the POV of "you follow the boss's orders or you don't eat", sure. But there was a lot more of an individualistic, even an antiwar, mindset before WW2 than there was afterwards. We were not yet a militarized country.DELTA0321 said:
J. M. Stovall
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Jump school was still pretty tough in '82. I didn't see any of the problems mentioned here. But I do agree it should only be two weeks, not three.
Mike1939
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Carebear, your observations of Jump School are very astute. I went through in the summer of '89 right out of Basic and Advanced Training. I personally was very impressed with the Marine students and ashamed of many of my fellow Army students. It made me wonder if I'd joined the wrong branch of the service afterall. However, you can not fairly compare Marine Recon and Navy Seal students to Army grunts fresh out of Basic.
Then again, there is no comparing a Marine fresh out of bootcamp with a soldier right out of Army Basic Training either. Marines, I must admit, have a better basic training and intro to military life. Though I must say, not all of us in the Army are as bad as you've made us sound.
Another point about the Army students in Jump School is that they were not all grunts or future special forces, lots of 'in the rear with the gear fellas' like cooks and office jockeys.
Then again, there is no comparing a Marine fresh out of bootcamp with a soldier right out of Army Basic Training either. Marines, I must admit, have a better basic training and intro to military life. Though I must say, not all of us in the Army are as bad as you've made us sound.
Another point about the Army students in Jump School is that they were not all grunts or future special forces, lots of 'in the rear with the gear fellas' like cooks and office jockeys.
J. M. Stovall
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J. M. Stovall said:
Another difference between my experience and others is that our whole class was made up of cadets, probably a more serious bunch in general (and not any better than our enlisted counterparts by any means).
Thunderbolt
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The Most Miserable Expierience of My Life...
...so far. I must be a big wimp because it's the Air Force! I was able to handle the yelling I guess because I didn't screw up too much. But even if you aren't the guy whose getting lit up it wears on you after the weeks go by, just watching it happen to others. Thirty seconds for meals, and about 4-5hrs of sleep for a few weeks builds. By week 4, we had guys almost falling down sleeping. One poor soul was falling asleep sitting in class, so I told him to stand. The TI's said to stand if we felt were dozing off and we wouldn't get yelled at. The guy stands and almost falls. I suggested he drink some water from his canteen to see if it would help. But it didn't. We all were dog tired and hungry. At night, we'd have conversations about food! We all got sick and shared our diseases. PC wasn't too too tough. I got by and made requirements.I went through 15 Nov 05 to 2 Jan 06.
...so far. I must be a big wimp because it's the Air Force! I was able to handle the yelling I guess because I didn't screw up too much. But even if you aren't the guy whose getting lit up it wears on you after the weeks go by, just watching it happen to others. Thirty seconds for meals, and about 4-5hrs of sleep for a few weeks builds. By week 4, we had guys almost falling down sleeping. One poor soul was falling asleep sitting in class, so I told him to stand. The TI's said to stand if we felt were dozing off and we wouldn't get yelled at. The guy stands and almost falls. I suggested he drink some water from his canteen to see if it would help. But it didn't. We all were dog tired and hungry. At night, we'd have conversations about food! We all got sick and shared our diseases. PC wasn't too too tough. I got by and made requirements.I went through 15 Nov 05 to 2 Jan 06.
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After reading these posts...I'm just glad that I'm not a Drill Sergeant anymore. I was generally always very proud at the end result of those I trained. Jungle training for for Viet Nam was not a cakewalk back then. Seeing troops in battle now has always impressed me...with all their modern gear. However..If the attitude of the modern Army soldier is as expressed in these posts...I don't see how in the world they accomplish anything.
HD
HD
carebear
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To be clear, my understanding (and what I've seen in working with the 501st Airborne up here) the soldiers (in the combat arms at least) get locked on in AIT or when they check into their unit.
The weakness I saw is that basic no longer seems to do what I would consider "necessary" earlier in the process. I'm sure the Drill Sergeants do the best they can within the system.
The problem is probably the system.
The weakness I saw is that basic no longer seems to do what I would consider "necessary" earlier in the process. I'm sure the Drill Sergeants do the best they can within the system.
The problem is probably the system.
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carebear said:
Oh...for sure..it's the system. The idea of Basic Training was to instill the "basic" knowhow into the trainee or recruit including discipline as all important . Creating great "Pride"...not only for personal achievement...but of the squad..the Company. If the Drill Sergeants hands are tied to this extent..I not only pity him...but,moreso those who were failed by a worthless system. Nope...don't think I could handle todays new DS....nor High School teacher,for that matter.
HD
Harry Pierpont
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DEP
My youngest son is heading to BMT, (San Antonio), Air Force in August. He's going into the SERE program and I believe jump school is on the list, but not until the end of his other survival schooling after basic. That's about a year in different environments so I'll let you know what he thinks of it.
My youngest son is heading to BMT, (San Antonio), Air Force in August. He's going into the SERE program and I believe jump school is on the list, but not until the end of his other survival schooling after basic. That's about a year in different environments so I'll let you know what he thinks of it.
