How to make a pencil roll by hand

[44forrest]

I am reshaping a western and was thinking about a pencil roll with a gus crown. Could use some instruction on how to do a pencil roll by hand.

 

[feltfan]

Funny you should mention this...

I was just going to type this in for Art, who is making
a pencil roll brim hat for me now. I hope he's reading (though
he may be inclined to use the iron). This is from
"Stetson Hats and the John B. Stetson Company, 1865-1970"
by Jeffrey B. Snyder, page 31:

"Boss Raw Edge Kettle Finish

This is a Stetson hand finishing technique. Hats made of nutria
or beaver felt were curled and shaped at the kettle, applying hot
water to the brim and carefully curling it. This process created
a hat that would retain its shape under extreme weather
conditions. No binding was needed to keep the curl in the brim.
Kettle finished brims ranged from heavily to slightly curled.
Style names of hats finished in this way included Richmond,
Sorento, panama, Graeco, Express, Niagrara, Columbia, Denver,
Dakota, and Buffalo Bill."

The footnote for this passage attributes the information to
the John B. Stetson Company Catalogue, 1901. That probably
explains why we haven't heard of most of those styles. Of course
that finish was used later on other models (like my Clear Nutria
cowboy hat, which is not that old).

 

[Wolfmanjack]

I wish some of you experts would weigh-in here. I've always wanted to know how a pencil roll is made. It has to be far more dificult than simply a kettle of hot water and curling with one's fingers.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Well, it IS Wolfman, it is!!! I've heard of different methods to achieve this but I have only been sucessful with using the proper iron for the roll. There are different shackle & pencilroll irons, depending on the severity of the curl needed. I nix the kettle in favor of distilled water and a heavy tailoring iron, wet the brim edge, iron the edge forcing the steam into it, then go to work with the pencil curl iron. Even having the right iron, the right pressure and speed are needed. Time is important also as you REALLY have to be good to get it the first time. Now, if I were doing several hundred hats a day that statement might change, but for now, it's tougher than it sounds.
That being said, Forrest, I would try making a curved piece of wood ( think boomarang) perhaps only a few inches long, sand the edges round, then slowly follow the steps that Feltfan outlined using this (approx 1/4 thick) new tool to wrap the brim over. Let it dry in between sittings and I'll be you can get it the way you want it to look over a few sittings. Another thing I've heard of is using 1/4-3/8 rope to roll the brim over.
Patience Sir, patience

 

[majormoore]

Send it to a master hatter and let him do it right, don't be a tight wad, help the hatters stay in business.

Mike

 

[44forrest]

Send it to a master hatter and let him do it right, don't be a tight wad, help the hatters stay in business.

Mike

I believe that whenever a man hires another man to do something he is capable of doing and has the time to do, he looses a little bit of his dignity and disconnects a little from his soul. I try to do for myself until the task becomes too riskey. I am even willing to make a few mistakes if I learn something..... besides, I have two college educations and two weddings to pay for and am already looking for a second income. I work in the human services field where years of education and training are little valued and you recieve relatively little pay for a masters level education. This was my choice so I am not complaining as my work enriches my soul.

Art, do you think it would work if I took a 1/4 inch wodden dowell soaked it in boiling water and bent it to the curve of the brim, then wet the edges of the hat and ironed them over the dowell? How hot do I set the iron and can you think of a way to keep the dowell stationary?

 

[majormoore]

You will get a some what curl that way, I use my hatter irons a shackle curl or pencil curl to make my pencil curls on brims. You have to have the irons HOT, when you place them on the semi wet brim it needs to sound like bacon frying. You have to work a few inches at a time.

Trust me it's harder than it looks.

Mike Moore

 

[Dinerman]

what the heck- I'm going to try it on my "experimentation stetson".
It can't hurt.

 

[Dinerman]

and there we go.
I did it (sort of).
it probably would have been a whole lot easier if I had had tools, other than a pot of water on the stove and my fingers.

please pardon the terrible pictures of me wearing the still wet hat.

 

[art92101]

Bravo Dinerman

I applaud your gumption. It looks fairly good. not perfect but with a little more time into the project i bet you'll get it looking just right! Thanks for the fotos.

 

[Dinerman]

I'm massaging the waves out of the curl as I type.
It's great having a hat to be able to do this stuff to. Brim trim, crown reshape and rebash, now a pencil curl.
next on the list is a bound edge and a ribbon to replace the hatband made out of trimmed brim felt.
I'd never have tried this stuff on a hat that wasn't already a bit questionable.

 

[44forrest]

Nice work, you got stones kid. You inspire me. I love it when people jump into something with both feet. Way to go.

 

[Dinerman]

you wanna know exactly how I got the felt to do it?
there was no steam involved.
I got a big ol' pot of water to a good boil on the stove.
then I dipped the brim of the hat into the boiling water, and held it under for about five seconds.
I took it out, rolled it over with my fingers in about a two inch section, then dipped it back in, rolled again, till i'd worked my way around the brim.
it came out a bit lumpy, but then again, i had no form to use.

 

[Wolfmanjack]

Art and Mike, thank you for the information. Clearly it takes an experienced hatter with the right tools to produce a perfect pencil roll.

Nevertheless Dinerman, you got excellent results using just your hands and hot water. Did you ever get the ripples smoothed out?

 

[Dinerman]

it's still a bit wavy. I think a bit more steam, and perhaps some hat stiffener would do the trick.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Go for it Dinerman!! Like I said, patience. The difference between us is mostly expectations. You can do this on your own hat, take your time, wavy ?..OK but if I do it the expectation is much higher. I have to have it as close to perfect as possible or my reputation is smudged. Huge difference.

 

[majormoore]

I have several hats I have tried making a pencil curl on and they just were not as good as I wanted them to be, I believe trying to master this task is one of the hardest, the irons have to be very hot and on light colored hats you better use a cloth between the hat and curling iron, or you will have one looking I had, with rusty looking marks on it, remember these irons are metal and they will rust up some what, no matter how hard you try and clean them, they are not 100% free of rust.

Take a small 3/8" or 1/2" (hard plastic pipe) the kind you use to hook up the water line under the sink, cut it about 5" long, toss it into boiling hot water, take out with thongs and bend it around a tuna can , this will give you a semi circle in the pipe, wet the brim, top and bottom, not too wet, nor to dry, work about 3 to 4" at a time, making the edge come over the pipe you bent, work around the brim and , then do it again, until you have the right look. It works in a pinch, but not as good when done with the right iron.

Again, it has to be one of the hardest things to master.

Mike

 

[job]

I am thinking of trying a curl on one of my hats. Has anyone else curled the brim on one of their hats.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I am thinking of trying a curl on one of my hats. Has anyone else curled the brim on one of their hats.

Yep......now I am going back and trying Major Moore's suggestion!

 

[coble]

i took time today watching one of the ladies at the shop pencil rolling one of the straws, of course with straw its no iron, but still very rewarding in gaining knowledge. I do agree, pencil rolls are not a quick production, it does take patience, and its nice to have the tools.