How many own a vintage suit?

[Senator Jack]

Posting this pic again. 1950s Pierre Cardin suits. Perhaps if someone had told him that you shouldn't button all the buttons, he might have made a name for himself.

 

[herringbonekid]

Ah. Even so, the lapel roll should end at or above the top button, unless it's not meant to be fastened.

i think the roll looks lower than it is because the jacket is unfastened. i don't think it would be a problem at all when done up. i certainly wouldn't have any quibble over the lapel roll on a suit like that !



(sorry for the lack of posts recently. i'm taking 2 months off animation to work as a shoemaker's apprentice. i haven't had so much time in front of a computer lately).

 

[Matt Deckard]

I don't know... i'm just not pleased with the idea of style today.

Collar too wide for the tie
lapels too narrow for the suit... just looks like they don't belong
the break on the trousers is... well puddling.
The suit may look like it fits, though the balance and structure doesn't compliment the prince like those suits that were made in the old days.

and no hat.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Vintage vs. Modern Suits.

I don't think some of the comparisons here are fair. If you take a suit that was made for Cary Grant, a suit that probably cost him $300 in 1940 and compare it to an off-the-rack suit by Ralph Lauren that is made for the masses today for the same price, I suppose the Grant suit would be nicer.

Also, the style has moved on and lower armholes are the fashion. That is simply how it is. These things evolve; in this instance, regrettably so.

A fairer comparison is to match up bespoke suits from then and now in the same style. Politicians are rarely known for sartorial taste. I wish I had the purse to support this comparison.

Our aesthetic here is guiding our taste; declaring things inferior that we do not like. Personally, I see many details of vintage suits I like, and some I do not like. I am one who has handled hundreds and has tried more than a few on, then went immediately home and showered -My opinions on wearing used clothing are on record and need not be elaborated upon here,- so I have a background in appraising the relative values of vintage versus modern.

I must say that vintage suits have superior details, the canvasing, the lining materials, the buttons -Oh, the buttons; is there anything more sublime than real horn buttons?- the stitching and the drape. The armholes positioning is preferred to my, and I believe many of our, aesthetics.

Where I think vintage suits lack is in the materials. Yes, I realize that they were constructed of indestructible wools that have lasted for years; ergo, their existence on the rack of our local vintage shops. I realize that they are extremely heavy weight fabrics that drape very well as gravity pulls upon those massive sheets of fabric. I also realize that many of you love these characteristics and I salute you for it, but I cannot count myself among you.

I wear a suit for ten hours a day, five days a week. To me, there is nothing more luxurious than a wool and cashmere blended suit. I want something soft against my skin. I want fabrics that resist staining. Some vintage suits can be stood in the corner, supporting themselves. They are not for me.

Also, the idea of summer weight wool seems all but unknown in vintage suits, though their linens were amazing.

Anecdotally, I have seen fabrics like vintage fabrics and cuts that were similar. A few weeks back, I was in Newport, RI and I went into an English store with this tweed jacket on sale for $200, down from $600 or so. This jacket, though ugly in color, fit amazingly well; with high arm holes, lapels that laid flat across the chest, and without unseemly ripples on the chest or back. It's material was every bit as heavy as vintage tweed. It made Harris Tweed feel like a mosquito net; it was closer to chain-mail than tweed. I probably should have bought it regardless of its color.

Since I simply will not wear used clothing, and already feel I have compromised enough with hats, my paradise is a modern tailor who could make a custom suit for me for under $500 in a vintage style with modern fabrics.

I think it is difficult to recreate anything from the past exactly the way it was done. If we were to attempt to reconstruct a Model-T as a group project, could we find the same exactly type of steel? Could we find the same leather for the coach-work? How difficult would it be to source each individual component; why would suits be any different? Are many things manufactured the same way as they were 50 years ago?

So, I agree, except for fabric, that vintage suits are superior as are vintage ocean liners, trains, and skyscrapers. How much would it cost to build a copy of The Empire State Building today?

We should always be striving to raise the standards of excellence, though we are fighting against an incoming tide of mediocrity. Quixotic or not, I support this struggle, but don't take my blended fabrics away.

 

[manton]

i think the roll looks lower than it is because the jacket is unfastened. i don't think it would be a problem at all when done up.

Most tailors would say that the lapel roll should end above the uppermost button that is meant to be fastenend. A lapel that rolls past a working button would be considered a flaw.

This is one of the reasons why Savile Row has been so resistant to the 3 button rolled 2.5, which the Italians love.

 

[manton]

Collar too wide for the tie

Agreed, and I wouldn't do it, but that little knot with the T&A spread is one of Charles' hallmarks. It's so familiar on him it's almost grown on me.

lapels too narrow for the suit... just looks like they don't belong

Definitely. This is definitely one of his later suits. His old A&S stuff cut by Collin Harvey was just far superior. Wide lapels with lots of belly, and a higher gorge.

the break on the trousers is... well puddling.

Agreed. A millimeter of break, or none at all, is my preference. Though to be fair, "break" has been around for a loooong time. We can't really blame it on modernity.

The suit may look like it fits, though the balance and structure doesn't compliment the prince like those suits that were made in the old days.

The balance is fine, spot-on from what I can tell. The overall cut is just not what it could be.

 

[herringbonekid]

Most tailors would say that the lapel roll should end above the uppermost button that is meant to be fastenend. A lapel that rolls past a working button would be considered a flaw.

i don't listen to most tailors. i'll bet money that suit looks great when on and buttoned.

 

[manton]

I must say that vintage suits have superior details, the canvasing, the lining materials, the buttons -Oh, the buttons; is there anything more sublime than real horn buttons?- the stitching and the drape. The armholes positioning is preferred to my, and I believe many of our, aesthetics.

I really think you can get all of this today. Yes, it's rarer, and it costs more--much more--adjusted for inflation, but it's still around. Modern Italian sewing is better than any vintage sewing that I have ever seen. The internal materials (canvas, et all) have not changed at all, really. You can still ge fine horn buttons in a variety of colors and styles. And, as to cut--well, there is no reason why the cuts of the past can't be made today. I still maintain that in a lot of places they still are. A great many tailors draft their patterns based on drafting formulas that date back to the 30s or even earlier.

 

[manton]

i don't listen to most tailors. i'll bet money that suit looks great when on and buttoned.

The only thing is, the lapel will strain against the top button, and possibly roll over it, covering it up. It might (though this is doubtful, the cloth being so heavy) show a ripple at the collar. And it might (I think this a bit more likely) show a pull at the latitude of the button.

As to the rest--shoulders, gorge, collar, quarters, belly, all of it--I agree, it looks great.

 

[Senator Jack]

Charles' suit is a great argument for why I believe it a disservice to tell people to go to a bespoke house without arming them with real knowledge. Those of us in the middle class can maybe afford one bespoke suit every five years, if lucky, and to end up with a suit like Charles' is throwing your money away.

 

[herringbonekid]

i imagine it would look a bit like this:

...the lapel gently skimming the top of the button. looks fine to me. i don't see it as a flaw

 

[manton]

Charles' suit is a great argument for why I believe it a disservice to tell people to go to a bespoke house without arming them with real knowledge. Those of us in the middle class can maybe afford one bespoke suit every five years, if lucky, and to end up with a suit like Charles' is throwing your money away.

To be fair, I don't think that suit is bespoke. There were stories in the British press about a year ago that Charles had abandoned A&S and even Savile Row in an effort to economize. Why the freaking prince of Wales would need to economize is really beyond this commoner's comprehension. But then I suppose his annual expenditures must be enormous, and so he had to cut back somewhere.

 

[Mr. Rover]

Have we become cozy enough with royalty to drop Charlie's Prince title?

I agree with HBK on this. Buttoning Wooster's suit would probably simply look similar to how a 3-button suit with a lapel rolled to the 2nd button closed with the top 2 buttons.

 

[manton]

I agree with HBK on this. Buttoning Wooster's suit would probably simply look similar to how a 3-button suit with a lapel rolled to the 2nd button closed with the top 2 buttons.

Personally, I don't think that looks good. But then I don't even like 3-button suits when the lapel is rolled above the top button. The only 3 I liks is the 2.5.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Another vintage ready made three piece.

too bad he's sitting down in the pic, the suit is very nice.

As for the button roll on the two button. The one posted as with the previous one on the mannequin is again a two button both functional with the waist sitting between the buttons. The ones i have seen in person also have the lapel rolling slightly over the button. It's the fashion of the cut.

As for the prince... My opinion is that a little more shoulder, with the way the jacket is cut, would help the look.

 

[Mr. Rover]

More shoulder? Wouldn't his lapels turn into chopsticks?
Well widen the lapel make the shoulders a hare bigger shorten the trousers and you have a better looking suit in my opinion.

 

[Matt Deckard]

You know what for the Prince... forget the shoulders. Shorter jacket would take away some of the skirt and make it more balanced to my eye. widen the lapels and shorten the trousers. Anywho that's my opinion.

 

[Will]

Charles' suit is a great argument for why I believe it a disservice to tell people to go to a bespoke house without arming them with real knowledge. Those of us in the middle class can maybe afford one bespoke suit every five years, if lucky, and to end up with a suit like Charles' is throwing your money away.

Puddled trousers aside, if all modern suits were as good as the suit on the Prince, the world would be a much better looking place. If that's one of his recent Turnbull & Asser's (it looks it), it's respectable ready to wear construction made to measure, and significantly less expensive than bespoke even at T&A prices. He could find better MTM but probably not from an English supplier. I am glad it's not mine though.

 

[Mr. Rover]

You know what for the Prince... forget the shoulders. Shorter jacket would take away some of the skirt and make it more balanced to my eye. widen the lapels and shorten the trousers. Anywho that's my opinion.

Haha we were talking about this. I still think that hacking away some skirt isn't necessary. Just taking in some of the material at the hips and thighs would make the suit less A/Pear shaped.

 

[Indy Magnoli]

I believe Magnoli's new fabrics are of the 11oz. variety. Hardly heavy...

True, by vintage standards... I do have some nice 14oz wool blend in a strong herringbone pattern (though I believe I only have it in two or three solid colors).

Kind regards,
Indy