How many own a vintage suit?

[manton]

Hate to be a jerk, but if one is a modern-bespoke-super-150-kind-of-cut-right-but-not-really style aficianado, there are a lot of other suit forums that may be more appropriate for posting. I found, and joined, the lounge because I read posts that made me say, 'Finally. a couple of guys who know what they're talking about.' (Matt D, Baron K, Marc C, to name a few). I'd hate to see the lounge become another repository for sartorial old wives' tales. It's because it isn't that people come here.

Isn't this a question that you asked when you started this thread? And then wondered aloud why you weren't getting responses:

Still have yet to hear from a few of the fellas that post quite a bit about suits. Curious.

So why get annoyed when you get the responses you claimed to be seeking?

If the rest of what you wrote is supposed to include me, I don't like Supers and never have. I have posted several times on the Lounge in reponse to people seeking vintage quality and vintage weight cloth made today, which is what I prefer. There are still a few producers who make it, and one even got back into the game recently, which I think is a positive trend.

As to make, undoubtedly the quality level of vintage suits is overall much higher. There are any number of reaons for that. But there are a handful of makers today who can sew a suit every bit as well as the tailors of the vintage era.

As to cut, I think the best techiniques translate well across the decades. The best tailors know those techniques. I don't think any of the secrets of the vintage era have been permanently lost. It would be nice if more cutters and expecially RTW makers relearned them. But if one is a little patient, one can find a tailor, and some cloth, to make what is in all important respects a vintage suit in 2007.

One more point: fluidity of movement is not just a matter of small armholes. Fred Astaire-like freedom of movement also requires a lot of fullness over the shoulder blades and significant drape in the chest. That in turn can look sloppy or baggy to some; though some of us like the look very much. But a clean chest and freedom of movement are often at odds, and if one likes both, one has to make a compromise somewhere.

 

[Jovan]

Hate to be a jerk, but if one is a modern-bespoke-super-150-kind-of-cut-right-but-not-really style aficianado, there are a lot of other suit forums that may be more appropriate for posting. I found, and joined, the lounge because I read posts that made me say, 'Finally. a couple of guys who know what they're talking about.' (Matt D, Baron K, Marc C, to name a few). I'd hate to see the lounge become another repository for sartorial old wives' tales. It's because it isn't that people come here.

Regards,

Senator Jack

I don't quite understand. All I suggested was that modern tailors can do very high quality work and can source out the heavier fabrics many of you are looking for. And what ever suggested to you that any of us were "modern-bespoke-super-150-kind-of-cut-right-but-not-really" thumpers? What constitutes kind of cut right, but not really anyways?

Now, not for me to be a jerk, but I am seeing a disturbing groupthink on here that everything made past the '70s is not cut right. That is simply not true. Manton's suits for example are cut quite well and by a "modern" tailor: Armholes are correct for his build, there's the right amount of waist suppression, and everything drapes beautifully. A lot of tailors seem to prefer heavier fabrics as well. Not to mention, I have seen a good amount of RTW and MTM suits that are cut correctly (including my friend's line of clothing), it's just a matter of looking.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Extra fabric has been seen in the chest to allow more movement. I hate being restricted for any reason. I prefer three button models though ones which are cut with the armhole hooking under the armpit rather than being flat.

Off the rack then

Off the rack now

Added fabric in the chest for movement

Earlier cut with much higher armhole which has more of a hook under the armpit. Less need for extra fabric in the chest still allowing full range of movement. I'm sure they did the around the neck under the armpit measurements for these well known chaps.

I'm happy to see the return of the heavier fabrics. B. Black and sons in LA carries many fabrics and I always head for the bolts of winter weight materials when i am in the shop... they just nee more variety in pattern and color.

I have found the better the armhole cut the less excess material you need in the chest.

I do love this two button number Connery wears in From Rusia with Love and thought I would just throw in the pic. A far cry from the three piece Brioni suit The new bond wears at the end of Casino Royale
which looks like it is hanging away from his frame... though I did like the Brioni dinner jacket.

He should have been wearing grey!

And i'm not too keen on this light weight three piece though do like that It's a bolder look... one think I noticed about the three piece in Casino Royale was that the vest was loose... They need to be tight. The chest in this one isn't very shaped from what I can see and that is common on modern suits even bespoke.

I think he looks better in the vintage.

I was however impressed by the fit of this suit i saw posted on Ask Andy... Very well shaped in the chest for a two button. I wish the President would talk Rocko at Oxxford into giving him more of a figure.

 

[Jovan]

Great pictures, Matt. I definitely do see the difference between suits back then and a majority of them now with them side-by-side.

I once found an exquisite tailcoat from a thrift store. Even with my limited knowledge then, I was able to tell immediately that it was vintage by the high armholes and heavy fabric. Not to mention... signs of improper storage. Moth holes. :eusa_doh:

 

[Matt Deckard]

I have a few coats from the 20's and a three button cuttaway coat from earlier and the armholes are insane... though they do allow you to do cartwheels.

If you look at Craig in the vintage jacket you'll see how the armhole cuts right under hooking very close. Many modern ready made, even bespoke choose to have a flatter shape at that part of the armhole. which requires the tailor to add extra material to the front in order to allow movement on three button suits. I'll have to turn some armholes inside out to show the shape of the cut of the chest piece and back piece of the jacket. The hole is egg shaped though in some cases many times in the case of modern ready mades, the egg is extra large and aiming the wrong direction making the suit cumbersome with batwings.

I'll take a few vintage suits to London with me when I go talk to some of the tailors.

Bespoke is the way to go when it comes to what I want in a suit, I just hope to find the right tailor.

 

[Jovan]

Cool that he has a vintage suit (how do you know beyond the armholes?) but the stripes, and the lack of a chest pocket, aren't to my taste.

 

[Matt Deckard]

i'm guessing it's vintage going by the material the lapels the button hloes the flaps on the pockets and how the pleats on his trousers lay... very close to the fly. modern tailoring tends to go much farther away while vintage suits from the 30's and 40's tend to start around three inches from the fly. I'm not an expert though If it's not vintage I'll buy you a bottle of Whiskey.

See the rounded edges on his lapelles and no besom edge on the top of the pocket flap and the wear on the button holes and the color of the holes in general... anyway.

I don't think it's his, I think it's just for a promo shot.

 

[manton]

For most guys, the ideal armhole shape is sort of like an egg, big side on top, and tilted toward the back by 15 or 20 degrees. Not exactly, but close. As Matt says, you want to to be narrow at the bottom so that when your arm starts to move, it takes the sleeve with it immediately. The top needs extra width in part simply because there is more flesh up there, but also to accommodate the excess cloth in the upper sleeve. A sleevehead the exact same size as the armhole width would wear very tight.

 

[Jovan]

This is why I've liked posting here so far. You guys are really, really informed and informative about these types of things.

I do like lapel holes like that; lowish and small. Nice and understated, not to mention seems much more functional for holding a flower. I believe there's a good amount of tailors who still do them like that.

 

[Mr. Rover]

That buttonhole placement does certainly look like an old school placement.

 

[Mr. Rover]

Is it just me, or are those lapels unncessarily high?

 

[manton]

Pretty high. Don't know if they're "unecessarily" high. A high gorge is an Italian thing, particularly a Naples thing. There has been something of a forum Naples craze for a few years now, which may explain it. I like a high gorge myself, but I would probably lower that one a click for my taste.

 

[Mr. Rover]

My uncle was trying to make a peaked lapel jacket with lapels that high...honestly, the peaks looked funny to my eye. They appeared to fly off the shoulder...eck. :eusa_doh:

 

[manton]

For any peaked lapel coat, the gorge should be slightly lower than a notch coat made for the same guy. Not much, maybe 1/2", maybe less. You really don't want to see the points of the peaks sticking up over the shoulders. At least I don't.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Lapels look okay for the wearer. that high notch is a ver current fashion trend which you can also see on the suit worn by Graig in the new bond movie. If they were peaked and that high... well that would be comical.

I don't see them that high that often. Here is one posted by another memeber. The lapel has more belly. This one is made with no cuttaway for the lower button... buttons set in a way so that the waist is in between the two buttons. Not my style though looks good on some men. I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find a tailor willing to copy this design today.

I prefer the single breasted peak mainly in three button which was pretty dominant in England in the teens after looking at a few hundred pics from the era.

I love the Michael Collins styles Like the one here you see Liam Neeson wearing.

I think this was a repro and if it was... it looks very good. The shirts in the film were impeccable and i bet many were definately vintage going by the collar shapes. High and tight in the back and long and pointed in the front.

 

[manton]

While I like a lot of things about that vintage suit on the tailor's dummy posted above, I think the lapel roll is off. Look how it rolls far past the waist button. When worn and buttoned, that jacket will show distinct pulls around the button and through the wast. The lapels will also pull at the button, straining the thread until sooner or later the button will pop off.

Could be a tight collar (most likely) or a couple of other things.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The one shown on the dummy doesn't have a waist button. the waist is between the two buttons. The jacket is cut for the wearer to have both buttons fastened. That's why I said you'd be hard pressed to find a tailor today willing to copy that style. Very uncommon today though a very available option back in the golden era.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

I haven't voted yet because I still hold out hope of finding a vintage suit. If I lose 50-75 pounds I should be able to wear a size 48 jacket. I'm on the lookout for anything size 48-54 in the meantime.

 

[manton]

The jacket is cut for the wearer to have both buttons fastened.

Ah. Even so, the lapel roll should end at or above the top button, unless it's not meant to be fastened.

Two button coats like that were worn a lot by the duke of Windsor. True, you don't see them much today. They would not be hard to make, though. The biggest problem you'd have is overcoming the tailor's stubborness.

 

[slicedbread]

Cool that he has a vintage suit (how do you know beyond the armholes?) but the stripes, and the lack of a chest pocket, aren't to my taste.

The chest pocket could easily be on the other side of the jacket (unable to be seen from the angle in the pic)