And you should!
Note you are completely incorrect in your assertions here. I do enjoy reading the lounge from time to time and as a person who spends an inordinate amount of time in tanneries working with owners and buying drumloads of leather I will say this is nonsense. I can't speak for other companies ordering from distributors but we visit our tanneries on a regular basis and meet with the staff, owners and other team members. Im curious if you have any expertise at tanning, running a tannery, working in a tannery or making leather jackets? If you ever have questions about information on our website you are welcome to drop a line and grab clarification. Regarding my team of sewer/cutters we go over every load of leather received and determine colour consistency condition etc...I mean why write this post at all ...I happen to have spent plenty of time at both McCoys and the mfg for Finecreek and I will tell you this is offbase and factually incorrect.
The only leather experts are the people working at the tannery. Leather jacket makers are tailors & designers and they certainly ain't tanning experts. They'd be waaay better off just saying "This is our brown leather and this is our black leather. They're all pretty cool!" 'cause frankly, at this point, that's all I wanna know.
Believe me, the only thing that makes sense is to forget 90% of "terminology" you hear getting thrown around out and just focus on color, texture and thickness (though even that part is filled with bs).
What @Jin431 says, it's just marketing techno-babble. Process of tanning is very complicated & by the time any information on how a batch of leather that some specific maker sourced has been tanned, gets transformed into a blurb on some retail platform, it went through so many levels of misunderstanding that it's best to simply ignore it.
I mean, retail websites can't even tell the difference between leather that's been split into layers & leather that a machinist flips upside-down before starting working on a jacket. Most of the internet believes Shinki is a type of leather!
What's happening is that you're hearing all of these terms from people who've never set foot into a tannery. For instance, read the descriptions on Himel's "about our leathers" page - You'll notice that all "descriptions" consist of the exact same terms that have been slightly rearranged. They can't even get the suede bit right!
But that is okay!
Because leather jacket makers themselves aren't even sure what they're buying and will for the most part just source leather that's got all the characteristics their product is known for; ie. what they're used to working with and ultimately, what the consumer expects from them.
It often happens to the tannery that they run out of a certain type of leather, which then forces makers to look for the closest match. I mean, that won't happen to Fine Creek or Real McCoy but it happens. It happened to Schott and Vanson. But what I'm getting at, not even the machinists will notice something's changed, let alone people who talk about tanning on social platforms.
People who have been in the industry for decades will happily tell you they don't care how the leather has been tanned as long as it checks all the boxes they require and I do believe that's actually a very healthy approach to all of this.
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How many new jackets do you have coming (and how many potential ones)?
- Thread starter red devil
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All I hear is a grunt from Halo screaming—Get It Off!!!!
Mrfrown
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@himelator I appreciate you stopping by and spending the time to reply.
After the big kerfluffle earlier in the year it may feel like a dicey proposition so - thanks!
I don’t see as many Himels here as I do on Instagram, and there are some seriously nice fitting jackets y’all turn out.
When I read the leathers section in your site I was impressed by the specificity (drum dyed, light pigment, medium-hard pigment) but also confused by some repetition between descriptions (mimosa, wrinkles and mold to wearer). Looking through it, trying to easily sort the leathers into categories- tanning process, dying process, weights, etc - isn’t straightforward. And of course there will be similarities across the leathers- they are all leather after all.
In the end, it’s ad copy and I get that. It really reminds me of the Thurston descriptions - “amazing grain and character right out of the box!” Consider leather descriptions put out by Langlitz- they’re non existent as far as I can tell? So trying to get some good info out there while not confusing potential buyers is a balancing act. And it can hide a much deeper background process and knowledge.
Is the “Learn About Our Leather” page something you have spent a lot of time nailing down the way you want? Or is it more like “it’s good enough for now let’s move on”
——————
Word salad about ad copy aside, @navetsea You know I didn’t have Fabio-style fringe flowing in the breeze on my mind when I was buying the Kehoe but now I can’t stop thinking about it lol
After the big kerfluffle earlier in the year it may feel like a dicey proposition so - thanks!
I don’t see as many Himels here as I do on Instagram, and there are some seriously nice fitting jackets y’all turn out.
When I read the leathers section in your site I was impressed by the specificity (drum dyed, light pigment, medium-hard pigment) but also confused by some repetition between descriptions (mimosa, wrinkles and mold to wearer). Looking through it, trying to easily sort the leathers into categories- tanning process, dying process, weights, etc - isn’t straightforward. And of course there will be similarities across the leathers- they are all leather after all.
In the end, it’s ad copy and I get that. It really reminds me of the Thurston descriptions - “amazing grain and character right out of the box!” Consider leather descriptions put out by Langlitz- they’re non existent as far as I can tell? So trying to get some good info out there while not confusing potential buyers is a balancing act. And it can hide a much deeper background process and knowledge.
Is the “Learn About Our Leather” page something you have spent a lot of time nailing down the way you want? Or is it more like “it’s good enough for now let’s move on”
——————
Word salad about ad copy aside, @navetsea You know I didn’t have Fabio-style fringe flowing in the breeze on my mind when I was buying the Kehoe but now I can’t stop thinking about it lol
There is something very ASMR about the “thwapping” sounds this jacket makes when you twist your upper body. Give it a try before you shorten the fringe.
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I'm still too afraid to even glance at it. Is it as bad as being condemned to Hades? Or worse? It can't be worse than Zeus' wrath.
Mrfrown
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There is something very ASMR about the “thwapping” sounds this jacket makes when you twist your upper body. Give it a try before you shorten the fringe.
Haha as long as this jacket is in my possession the fringe abides!
I think you'll live. At least you didn't mention Zara or H&M, two top tier makers in there own right
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I think you'll live. At least you didn't mention Zara or H&M, two top tier makers in there own right
You're right. I still recall Stu's reaction when I compared the jacket they sent me to Hot Leathers. In retrospect, that was uncalled for. I never saw Hot Leathers with nearly as many issues as the jacket I got.
Canuck Panda
I'll Lock Up
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I've bought almost every branded tannery leather, at retail. Some of them are still waiting to be made into jackets. Will make a master post when I get everything back, could be a while.
I didn't take picture of the Italians (Victoria?) ones, and some other misc. leathers.
@Monitor is correct on the marketing terms. They are just words. I will go into detail when I get my jackets back from the makers. But there is no unicorn leather. No one brand/type/finish is better than the other. If you like the color, texture, thickness, then you are good to go.
The higher price are always inflated by marketing. Not actual customer satisfaction. Maybe resale, but not always.
I should also point out that some maker do take it up one notch by hand dyeing / finishing themselves. I discovered that my GW (bought here used) is like that. Still same aniline Shinki, just more personalized, with some heart. I like. Also less wasteful too.
I didn't take picture of the Italians (Victoria?) ones, and some other misc. leathers.
@Monitor is correct on the marketing terms. They are just words. I will go into detail when I get my jackets back from the makers. But there is no unicorn leather. No one brand/type/finish is better than the other. If you like the color, texture, thickness, then you are good to go.
The higher price are always inflated by marketing. Not actual customer satisfaction. Maybe resale, but not always.
I should also point out that some maker do take it up one notch by hand dyeing / finishing themselves. I discovered that my GW (bought here used) is like that. Still same aniline Shinki, just more personalized, with some heart. I like. Also less wasteful too.
Fly, Icarus, fly! I don't know the details of this incredible endeavor, but man alive am I intrigued! I will follow your journey with bated breath.
Got some inclement weather going on in your office there…The Ostmann jacket is here
Sleeves are pretty tight so it'll preclude wearing a sweater, and it actually looks better to me unzipped than zipped so let's see how it'll be broken in...
You're right. I still recall Stu's reaction when I compared the jacket they sent me to Hot Leathers. In retrospect, that was uncalled for. I never saw Hot Leathers with nearly as many issues as the jacket I got.
Monitor, a man with a mission. A mission to write posts so obscenely insulting that he’ll bring every known leather jacket maker to comment on TFL. I will follow your future endeavors with great interest, sir.
what I don't get is why do makers ask to someone who dare to make assumption if they themselves are jacket maker (while I believe they know FOR SURE @Monitor is NOT a jacket maker)... as if only between jacket makers or people in the same trade can be allowed to criticize or make speculations, if a game is broken you don't have to be a coder or own a video game company to say something, or make assumption of it. if a movie script is stupid like we have these days... one don't need to be a writer to assume this story is written by an elementary school dropout.. even when the writer is actually a university graduate.
I also think many information or spec details behind a product is just there for marketing or to give "reasons" where the high price is spent on. it doesn't say anything in layman languange, the details is always so encryptic you need to google everyline and jump into forums and browse through internet articles, to finaly make your own unproven assumption of the meaning of these spec, because it is so cryptic noone agree to the real meaning or what property it represents.
like in raw jeans or leather products...
they never just say it will shrink a lot after washed and everything on it will twist a lot to the right, the side seam will be on your knee but only on the left leg (see howmany 1st time customers they would lose if they say something honest like that). instead they will say unsanforized RHT, hightension, cotton from x country, loomed by Y mill, what are these information means to just normal people who walk in to buy a pants...
or in leather, why not just say, this leather will look the same after being rained on, this leather will warp and fade alot, this one will scratch alot and turn sueding after awhile,
technically end consumer don't really need the name of the plant the leather is dyed with, it is more useful if they just mention what color it really is when new and to what color it will develop later on with sun and wear.
I also think many information or spec details behind a product is just there for marketing or to give "reasons" where the high price is spent on. it doesn't say anything in layman languange, the details is always so encryptic you need to google everyline and jump into forums and browse through internet articles, to finaly make your own unproven assumption of the meaning of these spec, because it is so cryptic noone agree to the real meaning or what property it represents.
like in raw jeans or leather products...
they never just say it will shrink a lot after washed and everything on it will twist a lot to the right, the side seam will be on your knee but only on the left leg (see howmany 1st time customers they would lose if they say something honest like that). instead they will say unsanforized RHT, hightension, cotton from x country, loomed by Y mill, what are these information means to just normal people who walk in to buy a pants...
or in leather, why not just say, this leather will look the same after being rained on, this leather will warp and fade alot, this one will scratch alot and turn sueding after awhile,
technically end consumer don't really need the name of the plant the leather is dyed with, it is more useful if they just mention what color it really is when new and to what color it will develop later on with sun and wear.
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howmany time we read vegtan leather is better, and green to the environment... what does it mean?
greener means it would be easier to decompose right? does it mean vegtan leather is short lived and will be rotting easier when left out to the environment... mean don't wear your vegtan leather jacket in the rain often, do it once or twice only to make it look good and creased but never more?
what does it mean when your leather patinas and get wrinkly and soft, is it a half rotting, the most robust vegtan wallet will turn dark and soft within 4 or 5 years if we carry it everyday does it means it is halfway gone? on the spot where it completely black and soft it feel like deteriorating mummy, will it completely rot within 10 years? will straight vegtan jackets that is suppesedly supperior will last for 25 years + will it make 50years?
greener means it would be easier to decompose right? does it mean vegtan leather is short lived and will be rotting easier when left out to the environment... mean don't wear your vegtan leather jacket in the rain often, do it once or twice only to make it look good and creased but never more?
what does it mean when your leather patinas and get wrinkly and soft, is it a half rotting, the most robust vegtan wallet will turn dark and soft within 4 or 5 years if we carry it everyday does it means it is halfway gone? on the spot where it completely black and soft it feel like deteriorating mummy, will it completely rot within 10 years? will straight vegtan jackets that is suppesedly supperior will last for 25 years + will it make 50years?
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Marc mndt
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I think it's actually the consumers themselves who 'demand' leathers from brandname tanneries like Badalassi Carlo, Horween or Shinki Hikaku.
I once met this guy who owned a dozen high end Japanese made jackets. All of them cost €2k+ new and were made out of Shinki Leather. When we had a discussion about different makers he told me how he once contacted Thedi Leathers to get a quotation on some jacket. He was told €1500, which he thought was too much money for the jacket. When I asked him why he said because it was 'only' Italian leather (horsehide). When we met a second time I showed him my hh Thedi and he was absolutely blown away by both the leather and the quality of construction. He had no idea Thedi jackets were that nice.
I'm sure that if Thedi would have used Shinki hides instead of Italian hh, he would have ordered the jacket right away after receiving the quotation.
Considering the aforementioned, I think when buying a jacket people (partially) base their buying decisions on the brandname of the leathers/tanneries in order to
1) compensate for their own lack of knowledge on leather quality and tanning methods
2) justify their significant outlay
3) because they see some particular brandname as a quality signifier
but those a hype consumers right, they just browse and the internet and get immersed into something they never see and touch and just belief. which is strange if you think the world has become more skeptical or critical, yet in some aspects people just have pure faith in a brand just like it was with religion. I do think hype will pour in and then move on to something else.
when I learned basic term of raw jeans just 3-4 yrs ago, every article in the internet said unsanforized right hand twill will twist to the front, but none of them mention on the left leg only... because it twist to the back on the right leg... was it an oversight, or just lie? why do they keep saying twist to the front, why not say twist to the left (or to the right from the wearer's side)
same with full grain and top grain thing, or vegtan above any other tanning methods, seems like everyone is parroting everyone outthere. very hard to just read simple honest fact unless you have it in hand, which means its already too late in some cases.
when I learned basic term of raw jeans just 3-4 yrs ago, every article in the internet said unsanforized right hand twill will twist to the front, but none of them mention on the left leg only... because it twist to the back on the right leg... was it an oversight, or just lie? why do they keep saying twist to the front, why not say twist to the left (or to the right from the wearer's side)
same with full grain and top grain thing, or vegtan above any other tanning methods, seems like everyone is parroting everyone outthere. very hard to just read simple honest fact unless you have it in hand, which means its already too late in some cases.
