How do you think a vintage diner would do in modern times?

[rjb1]

Brown's Diner, mentioned above, brings to life Yogi's saying, "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded." I live about a quarter-mile from the place and don't go as often as I used to for that very reason. However, everyone else does.
They split the difference concerning having a counter or dining room by having both. However, having a dining room was considered somewhat sacrilegious when it was first added, but people have gotten used to it. I prefer the counter area myself, as do many others. The counters are usually well-used in off times and you have to wait to get a seat during peak hours.

Lizzie's mention of "chef" while I was thinking of Brown's Diner made me laugh. The last time I was there the chef/cook was a scrawny old guy with a dirty T-shirt, blue jeans, apron, and paper hat. A greasy-spoon cook right out of central casting - accent on the greasy...

Starting a new place would be difficult to turn into a local institution, but everything has to start somewhere.

 

[Tomasso]

Who will immediately talk you out of doing anything that is not tried and true, on grounds that the failure rate is too high and the margins too low at the best of times.

This may be true but the reason I suggest partnering with an experienced and successful restauranteur is for his operational skills, his relationship with suppliers and his customer following from his other restaurants. So the new resturant will not suffer the waste associated with inexperienced management, will receive favorable terms from suppliers and will have an immediate clientele. While these things will not guarantee success they do greatly improve the odds.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

The real problem, I think, would be dealing with what people expect from restaurants nowadays. Around here, at least, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find a place that serves just plain old traditional no-frills American food. It has to be stylized in some way, it has to be "upscale," it has to be presented by a chef, not a simple short-order cook. A traditional diner has a very hard time of it in this type of climate -- its customers tend to be older, and they have an unfortunate habit of dying off.

The young, hip crowd might be attracted to such a place for "irony's" sake, but as soon as they find out their choices for coffee are Maxwell House and Sanka, they'll be out the door with a derisive snicker.

I, however, would gladly patronize such a place. I'm a regular at the last remaining non-upscale eatery in town, and the day they start tarting the place up is the day I leave.

If Tofu Wasabi Burgers are on the menu, do not walk, RUN away!

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

The local diner in my home town closed after many, many owners and at least 60 years because of the price of gas for the griddles went WAY UP. The gas was costing $2500 a month, and you had to leave the gas on all day because eggs are the first thing sold in the morning and in case someone wants a burger until you closed. When you factor in prices, I suggest you put a good factor above current prices on meat, gas, veggies, rent etc.

You might also look for ways to cook that cost less, no suggestions on how though.

Later

 

[LizzieMaine]

If Tofu Wasabi Burgers are on the menu, do not walk, RUN away!

The hilarious thing is, we actually have a place right here in town that offers such things. For $15. And it's "artisanal" to boot.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I'm also leery of any business with deep fat fryers because of the increased insurance cost and the cost of installing, not just the fryers but the ventilation and fire safety equipment.

This is why I would be looking at things like sub sandwiches, soup, pizza, or possibly an ice cream store (can do very well in summer in the right location) anything that does not involve hot grease.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I find it hard to believe the restaurant was put out of business by the high cost of gas. In the last few years hundreds of new gas wells have come to market and the price of gas has dropped.

There may be some other reason they prefer not to disclose.

 

[Dinerman]

The hilarious thing is, we actually have a place right here in town that offers such things. For $15. And it's "artisanal" to boot.

Have you been to the A-1 in Gardner? That's one of the few that balances the traditional diner fare with fancier stuff in a good way.

 

[Matt Crunk]

I'm also leery of any business with deep fat fryers because of the increased insurance cost and the cost of installing, not just the fryers but the ventilation and fire safety equipment.
This is why I would be looking at things like sub sandwiches, soup, pizza, or possibly an ice cream store (can do very well in summer in the right location) anything that does not involve hot grease.

It would be difficult to serve traditional diner fare without a deep fryer (I'm thinking french fries in particular), but it might be possible to get by with just a grill.

 

[Stanley Doble]

You would know better than I, what Town Creek Alabama wants. In the end it is your patrons who dictate what will sell and what will bring in customers.

I'm trying to think what the public likes today, that would fit in with the small town diner type theme. I know you don't want some hokey retro place. But a modern eating place that has a traditional, small town feel to it.

I know that in 2 towns I am familiar with, one with a population of 9000 the other 17000, there were 2 places that did well with just breakfast and lunch, the lunch menu featuring home made soup, sandwiches, salads, coffee, pastries, pie and the like. No french fries or deep fat, very low in cost to set up and run, cafeteria style service eliminates wait staff, open from 7 to 3 or 4 so the hours were not too brutal.

This depends on having a downtown with enough business from the shoppers and shop keepers.

In the end you will have a better idea what you want than I would. I'm just throwing out some ideas.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Baked fries in an oven. They're delicious, and healthier too. they turn out perfect.
a
Recipe: 350 degrees, 17 - 35 minutes depending upon your oven size and if it's pre-heated or not, medium wedged fries (anything smaller and it gets a bit greasy), olive oil (or canola or corn or whatever, but olive oil is best, even olive flavoured spray cool lube dross), set the wedges down on a metal tray, with parchment or foil on top, treat the parchment or foil accordingly with a few drops of oil and then spread this around with a potato wedge, then place the other wedges upon the tray, drizzle the wedges top-side with oil or spray with the non-stick cooking spray, season to taste with garlic powder, seasoned salt, and lemon pepper or course ground black pepper. Put in the oven, let them cook for a bit until they have the desired consistency, and voila! Delicious French fries with no frying.

They're also good if you drizzle them in a bit of sherry or vermouth but that requires more pepper to balance.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Have you been to the A-1 in Gardner? That's one of the few that balances the traditional diner fare with fancier stuff in a good way.

I have, but it was probably fifteen or twenty years ago. Good food, but I thought a bit pricey by diner standards.

I live about twenty minutes away from Moody's, which is the gold standard for Maine diners, and I think its example is pretty instructive into what makes a diner a lasting success.

1. CONTINUITY. Moody's has been owned and continuously operated by one family for nearly ninety years. Obviously that's not something a startup can match, but it would help a lot for the operator of such a new place to be someone with roots in the town where he wants to start it, as in at least a few generations' worth. If you're putting your name and your family reputation on the line with people who knew your grandparents, you've got a better chance of being trusted than if you're setting up in a town where they don't know if you're for real or just another fly-by-night character.

2. STABILITY. Moody's menu and service has remained essentially unchanged over the past ninety years. It's expanded, but the additions have been in character with the original meat-and-potatoes/ham-and-eggs fare. They not only don't chase trends, there is nothing in the place to suggest that trends even exist. "Regulars" like that about the places they eat -- that's what comfort is all about.

3. SINCERITY. This is the most important factor, by my way of thinking. There is absolutely no "kitsch" or "camp" at Moody's -- again, there isn't even any awareness that such things exist. There is no attempt at "decor" in the building at all -- the only things hanging on the wall are either old photos of the family or posters and bulletin-board items tacked up by local organizations advertising bake sales, bean suppers, or benefits. The place is what it is -- it makes no effort to convince you thru appearance that it is such, the mere fact of its existence is enough to convince you of that. It is, simply and merely, an honest working-class place to stop and eat. You are being sold a hamburger, not a fashion accessory. It will not be the best hamburger you ever ate, and it won't be the worst. It's just a hamburger. Nothing more and nothing less, ever. There is no subtext. There are no inner layers. There is no irony.

That, to me, is the heart of the real diner experience. And you can tell if it's a sincere place to eat the second you step thru the door.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I find it hard to believe the restaurant was put out of business by the high cost of gas. In the last few years hundreds of new gas wells have come to market and the price of gas has dropped.

There may be some other reason they prefer not to disclose.

Yeah, it's not the price of gas that is any sort of problem. They can't give it away right now.

 

[Evan Everhart]

I absolutely agree Lizzie Maine! One of my favourite diners absolutely fit this bill to a T, until they decided to start getting all trendy, re-decorating, trying to add new BS to the menu instead of the classic old stand-by items....Then, nightmare of nightmares, the son of the owner died, and to make matters, worse, they decide to rename the place. It's gone quickly down the toilet ever since, especially since my favourite old waitress "Taffy" retired after who knows how many years....Only a few of the old bus-boys who are now waiters have remained and the old chef left leaving people who don't know how to make all of the stand by items like they used to, like veal parm, roast half chicken, salisbury steak, meatloaf, turkey gumbo, and etc. And the prices have gone up too.....At least the spaghetti and meatballs and tapioca pudding with shredded pineapple and pineapple juice mixed in are still good. I really hate how every window now has some terrible piece of stained glass plastered in it....It used to just be a place for a 25 cent cup of coffee, a cheap bowl of chili or soup, and a stinky cigarette where you could look W.C. Fields or Edward G. Robinson in the face while eating (they have tons of really old pictures of the stars who visited back in the old studio days). It used to be called Sitton's, in North Hollywood.

 

[MPicciotto]

Lizzie,

You pretty well described Double T. Though much larger then a traditional Diner that place has been unchanged for the 12 or 15 years I've been going there. The menu is extensive too, much more then any other restaurant in town. But nothing trendy. Just a substantial list of Greek, American and Italian fare. They also serve breakfast anytime and are open 24 hours. There are a few hours in the middle of the night when some of the dinner items aren't available but generally it's anything you want anytime you want. Friday nights and Sunday's after church there can be up to a 20 minute wait to get a seat. And yes that includes even at the counter.

It's fun to go there with larger parties (I've been there with as many as 10 or 12 people) because of the diverse menu. From omelettes to lasagna to Greek salad to steak can all be ordered to the same table at the same time. And the deserts... They have a display case as you come in with fresh baked in that kitchen deserts. I think you can gain weight just by walking near it.

Matt

 

[Tomasso]

You are being sold a hamburger, not a fashion accessory. It will not be the best hamburger you ever ate, and it won't be the worst. It's just a hamburger. Nothing more and nothing less, ever.

Yeah, it's freeing in its simplicity.

 

[Dinerman]

If you want a really cool diner for free, and would like go deep in the hole getting it moved and set up, take a look here. http://consumerist.com/2013/07/26/free-to-good-home-1930s-diner/

 

[Simons]

In the UK, I would suggest putting one near the local Harley Davidson dealership. I imagine people would travel some distance to go to both.

 

[GHT]

Probably true. But if I had listened to others I would have never started my last business. They said I'd be crazy and doomed to failure if I tried to start it with less than $50k to invest up front. I had $8k and I went for it. Within five years I was grossing $250k plus and ran the business successfully for 12 years, eventually opening two more locations. Naysayers are always gonna be there with the attitude that just because it hasn't been done that it can't be done.

If you post that you are thinking of............and then lay out your stall. There will be many naysayers, as you describe them, that, not with any malice, point out to you, the folly of your intended enterprise. If you are going to do it. Do it. Don't expect those for whom their agenda is your best welfare, to support you. They just don't want to see you fall flat on your face.
Having said all that, I am in complete agreement with you. It's obvious that you have management experience, and busines experience. You have also proved that insufficient finances are no barrier to success. And the reason I agree, I've been there. Redundant at the age of 52, started up on my own, turned over £16K in my first year, got that up to a seven figure sum within five years, taking in a serious five figure bad debt along the way. For what it's worth, somebody I know, who has a love of everything Art-Deco, and adores one of our country's favourite get-a-way places, a town name of Bournemouth, bought the old print room, where the local newspaper was produced before the age of e-technology. He set about turning it into an Art-Deco restaurant, with a1920's / 1930's flavour. He did it on a shoe string, he's never looked back. The place is always packed, the themed nights are the best, and he milked The Great Gatsby for all it was worth.
See here for an array of pics: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pi...eTsJ-ic0QXg24EY&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1280&bih=579

 

[Stanley Doble]

If you want a really cool diner for free, and would like go deep in the hole getting it moved and set up, take a look here. http://consumerist.com/2013/07/26/free-to-good-home-1930s-diner/

It would be hard to move but doable. I imagine it was a prefab job, assembled by semi skilled laborers in a few days. It should be possible to take it apart again to move it, although it would take a lot longer now. If you could find the original instructions for delivery and assembly it would be a great help. Otherwise take lots of photos and measurements.

It would be easier to move it in one piece but that may not be practical if you want to move it very far.

Later..............

On looking again, it does not look any bigger than today's mobile homes. If it is no more than 14 or maybe 16 feet wide it can be moved on ordinary roads without a special permit.

I take back what I said. I bet a mobile home mover or trucking company could move it for a very reasonable fee. The big expense is loading it on a truck and unloading after the move. The per mile cost is relatively small.

That thing should really be saved, and the price is right (free).

Better move quick though, if they have a building scheduled to go up it could be demolished and gone in a day.