Reproductions: How do you know they're accurate?

[mr_lits]

If you are going to reproduce an item take the time to hone the details. It may not have to be exact, but fine things are usually created from quality materials and the attention given to the details. It may not be the exact same zipper of the garments time but an attempt at refinement (not opting for the YKK) is a detail which I look for. Always a sucker for a well reproduced label too. At the end of the day I think it might be a bit esoteric but isn't that what many of us are here about already, the details?

 

[handymike]

I've been following the adventures of Simon Cathcart as he's been trying to get suits made that are authentic to the 1910's and 1930's.
It's amazing how many hurdles he's had to navigate. Even though his patterns and tech packs are spot-on, tailors can't figure out how to make the garments "the old fashioned way". It seems like in today's world many producers are unwilling to veer from their one trick/pattern. Or maybe knowledge was lost as the world focuses on expedience over details. He is persistent. He will get it done right, but what a journey...
I guess on the big brand level it comes down to what will sell with the least amount of effort and $$ (rely on the hype to win over the masses). As opposed to re-tooling the production line.
For the most part, I don't care so much. But when I'm going for the "signature piece", I want it done right.
Oh, and it has to fit too

 

[Doctor Damage]

Here's an article which has relevance to this discussion: http://www.livescience.com/46894-how-humans-changed-in-100-years.html. The point is that the average male measures out differently than the average male of 50 or 100 years ago, so clothes have had to change over time. Construction quality and raw materials quality are separate issues, of course.

 

[tmitchell59]

I get the impression that leather jacket makers have the originals and use them for reproductions. I never got the impression they are trying to duplicate civilian wear like they are military; stitch for stitch. seems people pay attention to details on MC jackets but not to other civilian styles. I've got originals and repros and don't think too much about how original they are. They come close enough for me.

I do get confused by the use of the "new" leathers. I'm not so sure they are quite right for some reproductions.

 

[ButteMT61]

@tmitchell59 - I think that JC @ GW and others are putting a lot into the civi designs. Maybe more willing to deviate on those, but I can see why as they were not made to some "mil-spec" sheet and likely varied wildly.

 

[Justhandguns]

I get the impression that leather jacket makers have the originals and use them for reproductions. ........

Yes, that is why some 'repro' markers are charging so much for the 'repros', and they do advertise it as facts. Vice versa, if I am paying the extra for a faithful repro, I would be expecting it to look as close to the original as possible, be it the cut, the materials used and/or the style, because I am seeing it as a collector's item. But if I am getting a 'vintage style' jacket (or another other items), I absolutely don't care if it looks exactly the same what young Winston Churchill was wearing; it just has to look good on me, fit and slick.

When we jump out of the leather jacket world, as some of you have mentioned, the biggest repro genre is probably denim wears. I have owned a few pairs of LVC and Japanese jeans, I sure can tell you that the 1947 Levi's 501 was far less robust than the modern day repro. I know some Japanese companies are obsessed with hand indigo dye cone mill denim which according to them, the exact way of how they made it in the old days. But would you expect such mass produced fabrics to have the same TLC in the 40s'? For God's sake, they were just rugged workwear..... The bottom line is, I am paying 200quids for a pair and I expect top notch quality, not some 40s' workwear with threads still handing out from everywhere.

 

[eptggkod]

I've been collecting militaria since the 70s- early on it was possible to buy anything (A-2, G-1, MA-1, M-41, M-43 etc etc) and so originals is what I wore. My obsession soon boiled down to A-2s- I became leary of wearing originals as they became scarcer-by the early 80s I wanted a repro to wear. I was SO SO disappointed with all repros back then- it was all Avirex- all Jeff Cyman and his fellow clowns. Eastmans came along and things got better- but my obsession also grew because my inexpert eye could see that something was not right even with my beautiful Eastman- and I wanted the Real Thing- but wearable! Lost Worlds, US Authentic, Aeros, Buzz Ricksons,- all were sorta OK but all had at least That One Thing Wrong. Shiny smooth leather- bizarre long epaulettes, funny clown collars, weird flaccid knits- I could (and have) go on. Even today if you scroll through the ebay auctions on an A-2 search you can usually pick out a repro instantly- back in the early 2000s it was even easier. Smooth, shiny, weirdly colored? Repro! My obsession has settled into one jacket- the Rough Wear. I have studied the Rough Wear obsessively- I can see every nuance- I have handled many and know their construction in and out. I don't care about Rough wear history or the factory or when they were issued- just how they look. The Rough Wear pattern is the most complicated and sublime of all A-2s- it has so many things going on and so many variations even within a contract. Look at pictures of Jimmy Stewart wearing his or better yet the propaganda film he made while wearing his 1401p and the way this tiny jacket fits and moves is the coolest thing garment-wise on this earth! That's just one guy and one jacket- look at thousands of photos of Rough Wears and you see what I mean. I can honestly say that my dream of The Perfect Jacket was fulfilled recently- by the only person on earth who could possibly do it- by John over at Good wear. I know I sound partisan but it is simply a statement of fact that only Good Wear copies a Rough Wear so it will look like a WW2 jacket. The one I had even had the original snaps put in with an original machine- one of the many details which create that greater whole of a Rough Wear original- so mysterious! Believe me (I'd be giving away trade secrets if I listed all the details he gets right and all other makers don't do) it is possible to get a WW2 original now. John has to make jackets for the 90% of people who don't exactly know what they want so even John will make compromises to Modern Fashion. He will make adjustments for fit and he sews jackets with perfect stitching and tailoring so to speak. But if you want a WW2 jacket made with the same proportions, sewing, and details- literally stitch for stitch almost- he's the Only Guy.

 

[Sloan1874]

Epic post! Love it.

 

[mr_lits]

Testify... Can I get an Amen....

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I do not care about unwavering historical accuracy. As long as the garment broadly reflects the design and spirit of the original, such that it was clearly inspired by the original, I am fine with practical deviations -- particularly when the deviations render the garment more functional and/or better fitting. For example, many original jackets have shorter sleeves and bodies, and wider/roomier chests and sleeves. I prefer reproductions that deviate from the original by lengthening and slimming the body and sleeves. For me, the better fit more than justifies the deviation from the original.

This sums up my opinion pretty well. I don't care if my clothing is an exact reproduction. In fact, my three favorite items of clothing are all specifically not exact replicas:

1. Oliver Peoples Victory sunglasses: aviator style frames, but very different in size and shape. They fit my face much better than a pair of real aviators would and are made better (in Japan)

2. John Lofgren engineer boots: 50's style boots, but they are on an original last than John came up with himself and to me, look nicer than any vintage or repro boots I have seen anywhere.

3. Real McCoy's A2 red silk: This is specifically a slimmer fitting A2 jacket and it looks MILES better on me than the Roughwear contract RMC jacket I had before.

I am sure a lot of people do care about authenticity, but I think there are many others like me who prefer vintage inspiration with modern touches as Superfluous stated.

 

[eptggkod]

Sadly my Mac gave up the ghost recently- all my photos of this jacket and my ability to post them are gone temporarily. I had the Rough Wear Beauty for about 1 year and recently traded it back to John for an Aero Combat Clone he made. This had the imperfect stitching and kind of muddy melding of parts that characterize an original- except for the new knits it could have been mistaken for one. Possibly members of this forum have bought these jackets recently- I sold the Aero and John the 23380 Rough Wear. Whoever has either jacket is lucky! Oddly- for me The Quest was far more fun than The Having. I let go of both jackets because The New now interests me more. If I could have afforded it I would have kept both- but as it is I'm on the waiting list for yet another Good Wear. I don't worry any more about having a WW2 A-2- kind of like a Star Trek Replicator I can buy one that will be pretty much the same (although the wait's a bit longer). If you want a Rough Wear that looks WW2 here's some advice: ask for the thinnest leather possible on the epaulets. If you get a Good Wear you can mold the collar to how you want it to look with a bit of patience or you can just wear the jacket and eventually (6 months or so if you have the Shinki leather) the collar will start breaking down to its natural Rough Wear collar look- of which there are many. The secret to that weird combination of curve and drama is that the collar has to start out a true Rough Wear shape and constructuion. When the repro maker tweaks everything to make that look happen right away it gets away...

 

[Superfluous]

I understand why some seek repro A-2s -- a garment with tremendous historical significance -- that replicate the original as closely as possible. For those who appreciate its significance, an A-2 is much more than simply a piece of insulation, and it transcends fashion. An A-2 represents an ideal, a bygone era, and an ethos . . . it represents honor, service, courage, patriotism, and so much more. For someone who understands and appreciates the A-2, donning the jacket invokes the spirit of those who wore the originals. Thus, under these circumstances, an A-2 repro's unwavering accuracy pays greater tribute to the ideals embodied by the original. Conversely, deviations can erode the bond between the repro and the original.

 

[ButteMT61]

Who's using @Superfluous account tonight???

 

[Superfluous]

Who's using @Superfluous account tonight???

 

[Steve S.]

I rarely make a jacket that doesn't have a customer added "convenience option", eg: inside pocket etc. I try to keep things as close to original as possible in relation to design, stitching etc. but don't feel that it detracts any when sizing changes are made. Currently, I'm making a jacket where 3" was added to the sleeve length & 2" in the body from the standard military pattern for that size. Back during the war, you weren't custom fitted for a jacket, you were issued & wore what they gave you. I've seen numerous flight crew pictures where one overly tall guy looks like he's wearing his kid brother's jacket. I think as long as the overall attention to detail is left original, its all good. What I find unacceptable is when I see an "authentic" A2 with a two/three piece back to cut costs a few bucks in production.

 

[Worf]

Wha.... I'm just stunned that Dinerman ASKED a question... I've only seen him ANSWER questions! Who knew?

Worfster

 

[CBI]

I think the way this is shaping up is with military, there are specs that one either follows to get it right or not. Replicating civi, the "specs" are wide open so less of a need. In re the above comments about Good Wear, my experience and views exactly. I own 6 GW's now but have owned a total of 15 or so. GW is how repros are done!!!

 

[Stearmen]

I had a "B-3" as well with the dreaded warmers. Went to Good Will after I joined the enabling hell-hole

The other day I was out when it was cold wearing one of my motorcycle jackets, it was cold and my hands were freezing, wasn't until I got home that I realized I had hand warmer pockets! I think this sight does it to us!

 

[rocketeer]

Sometimes repo's go beyond the call of duty so to speak. Personally I can't see the point of Eastmans General Patton replica B3, would someone really wear it unless they were dressing up as General Patton for something. Same with those A2s of famous aircraft, the Hell's Angels jacket spring to mind. Would you wear it in public? The bike club have nothing to do with the jacket but may 'take offence' at you dressing up representing real American hero's so what do you do with these, were they made for display only as they can only ever have the same value as any painted up repro jacket.
Finally, would you want true accuracy of an original maker jacket if it was slapped together with wonky stitching, mismatched epaulets etc. I think the answer to that one is NO, not paying £800 for faulty work, no matter how accurate it was to an original, I would want a bit knocked off the price. Wouldn't you?
Oh yes, bike jackets. has anyone evr had a perfecto style painted up like 'Johnny's' from the Wild One? Yes I painted mine, but I only wore it to a fancy dress party with a bus drivers hat and got the paint off as soon as I was home.
Oh well thats just me.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Sometimes repo's go beyond the call of duty so to speak. Personally I can't see the point of Eastmans General Patton replica B3, would someone really wear it unless they were dressing up as General Patton for something. Same with those A2s of famous aircraft, the Hell's Angels jacket spring to mind. Would you wear it in public? The bike club have nothing to do with the jacket but may 'take offence' at you dressing up representing real American hero's so what do you do with these, were they made for display only as they can only ever have the same value as any painted up repro jacket.

I have never understood (and probably never will) the desire to have repro jackets with patches and decals on them. I don't mind repros, in fact it's better than wearing out a piece of history, but I would rather not have anything like USAF decals.

Finally, would you want true accuracy of an original maker jacket if it was slapped together with wonky stitching, mismatched epaulets etc. I think the answer to that one is NO, not paying £800 for faulty work, no matter how accurate it was to an original, I would want a bit knocked off the price. Wouldn't you?

I think that's the essential hypocrisy of the people who insist on 100% repro, when it's obviously not 100% repro. Don't sneer at my hand warmer pockets and I won't sneer at your perfect stitching, perfect pockets, perfect collar, perfect fit, too perfect everything, etc etc.