How did Aero get the Highwayman name from Lewis Leathers ?

[aswatland]

I would be interested to know the status of the Rough Wear TM. Precisely what rights do Eastman have to use the RW name? If they own the TM then presumably they must have allowed Good Wear and Bill Kelso and other firms to use Rough Wear labels on their jackets. Was this done under license? I agree with Tim about GW using copies of original Aero labels.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Doesn't Aero 'own' the Aero name(trademark)..?? Isn't that how ELC got in some trouble a few years ago by using the name Aero on some A2s..?? Seems I recall Aero objecting to that.
HD

 

[Sloan1874]

Possibly a licensing deal was struck between ELC and GW. I can't imagine any company would let a competitor use something they owned the trademark for without some sort of financial arrangement. [huh]

 

[Plumbline]

Indeed HD ... Eastman were producing A-2's with a copy of the original Aero label in them ... Aero ( transatlantic clothing co) objected and prior to it getting messy Gary agreed not to use the label.

Good protection by Aero IMHO as it could have set a dangerous precedent re Aeros other brands and trademarks ...... But it is a small insight to the bitter infighting which occurs in the leather jacket world ( and there has been plenty of it over the years) ..... Which is perhaps why I have NO LOYALTIES to ANY of them :d

They're all as bad as one another ...... I'm on the side of the buyer NOT the manufacturer

 

[aswatland]

In 1996 Eastman made a very limited number of reproductions of the Aero 18775-P contract using a very fine copy of the Aero spec label. Only ten jackets were actually made. I understand the reason for this was the legal dispute with Aero over the use of the Aero name.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Wasn't there some story about the people who "own" the Irvin name (and producing an absolute garbage product, btw) trying to stop eBay auctions for original Irvins referring to them as such? I seem to have a vague memory in my head along these lines.

 

[aswatland]

Simon Green of Aviation Leathercraft bought Irvin Air Cute TM along with some of their wartime sewing machines in the 1970s. Aviation Leathercraft is now part of Moto-Lita Ltd and anyone who uses the Irvin name to advertise a repro jacket on Ebay is liable to find their auctions blocked. It's such a shame that the firm that bought the Irvin Air Chute name does not offer 100% accurate Irvins.

 

[Smithy]

Simon Green of Aviation Leathercraft bought Irvin Air Cute TM along with some of their wartime sewing machines in the 1970s. Aviation Leathercraft is now part of Moto-Lita Ltd and anyone who uses the Irvin name to advertise a repro jacket on Ebay is liable to find their auctions blocked. It's such a shame that the firm that bought the Irvin Air Chute name does not offer 100% accurate Irvins.

Couldn't agree more Andrew. It is a shame that they haven't upped their game or gone backwards and made their Irvins like they did in the early days - at least then they'd be closer.

Trademark law to my layman's eyes seems to be a bit of a crock when it comes to companies owning a pre-existing trademark that they historically have no connection with.

 

[alsendk]

Simon Green of Aviation Leathercraft bought Irvin Air Cute TM along with some of their wartime sewing machines in the 1970s. Aviation Leathercraft is now part of Moto-Lita Ltd and anyone who uses the Irvin name to advertise a repro jacket on Ebay is liable to find their auctions blocked. It's such a shame that the firm that bought the Irvin Air Chute name does not offer 100% accurate Irvins.

I agree with Andrew. Irvin ALC makes a very fine jacket. Why not make it accurate and real? They should have all the opportunities - and reasons for doing so.

 

[rocketeer]

I agree with Andrew. Irvin ALC makes a very fine jacket. Why not make it accurate and real? They should have all the opportunities - and reasons for doing so.

View attachment 12705

I personally think that Aviation Leathercraft sell to an entirely different market and probably do very well from it. They usually sell to the type of wearer who thinks that their(Aviation Leathercraft) jacket is what an Irvin flying jacket should look like, the open sports car owner who is not really bothered about original zips or Battle of Britain models and the difference compared to multi panel etc. Maybe give away a few jackets to the Memorial flight, though they will probably never wear them and thats an instant free recommendation by a well respected organisation.
To convert to producing accurate copies of WWII jackets, would it be worth their while? Would their customer base care or even notice the difference?
J

 

[aswatland]

Could they not produce their current jackets for the open car enthusiasts and offer a more authentic garment for those who appreciate the fine points of originals? With the 75th anniversary of the B0B next year it would be a perfect time to produce a stitch for stitch copy of an original 1940 Irvin.

 

[BuzzTheTower]

Gents,

John from Good Wear here. I've actually been working with Ken Calder of Aero for a license agreement, starting about two months ago. I've gotten one set of labels done, the Aero 18775 contract, and the first sample can be seen here:

http://www.goodwearleather.com/new_aero_18775/

I hope to have more labels made, which Aero and GW will share, including the B-3, B-6 and D-1 labels, and a few A-2 models.

I feel very happy to have been offered the license, and thank Ken for doing that.

This Aero above is a new pattern, too. I have had an original for a long time that I've been meaning to copy, and this is a slightly different design than the previous version. From ten feet away, no one would know the difference, but it is slightly different.

Thanks!
John

 

[Sloan1874]

As JC proves, timing is everything! :eusa_clap And I should say, a lovely looking jacket - big fan of the berry knits.

 

[aswatland]

This is excellent news for Good Wear. Thanks Ken and well done John.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy who offers such a great product.
HD

 

[jon11]

+ 1 with HD

 

[alsendk]

No, honestly - I don`t think these buyers care a hoot about originality. Here in Denmark, every owner of a Morgan car wears a Irvin jacket by rule. I do believe, that ALC is selling so many jackets, that they do not have to care much about originality at all. When I bought my ALC, I too didn`t know much about anything, and were truly happy to purchase one. I have had a good use of it, wearing it often in our colder climate here, and have come to love my jacket, though it being a lesser accurate Irvin. It is very well made and very warm, but still a shame that it is to be one of the least accurate jackets, to bear the name.

 

[Smithy]

Gents,

John from Good Wear here. I've actually been working with Ken Calder of Aero for a license agreement, starting about two months ago. I've gotten one set of labels done, the Aero 18775 contract, and the first sample can be seen here:

http://www.goodwearleather.com/new_aero_18775/

I hope to have more labels made, which Aero and GW will share, including the B-3, B-6 and D-1 labels, and a few A-2 models.

I feel very happy to have been offered the license, and thank Ken for doing that.

This Aero above is a new pattern, too. I have had an original for a long time that I've been meaning to copy, and this is a slightly different design than the previous version. From ten feet away, no one would know the difference, but it is slightly different.

Thanks!
John

That's excellent news John! I always thought that there was something very unfair about you being the A-2 maker with the biggest attention and commitment to detail and yet unable to use a historically accurate label for the Aero contracts.

Really happen to hear this.

 

[Sloan1874]

It did occur to me that when JC mentioned earlier that he was looking at introducing a more off-the-shelf jacket (relatively speaking) to his specification, he might be partnering with Aero to make this happen - can't think of anyone better suited to the task. No idea if it's the case, but would make sense.

 

[Edward]

Edward you have made a valid point about the quality of some vintage MC jackets compared with modern renditions of them. I too have seen some inferior quality Lewis Leather jackets, but also some top quality ones. My 1966 twin track Bronx is superbly made as is my 1959 Bronk

Certainly there were some great jackets made in that era.... I'd put it down to quality control not being then for the mass market what it is now for the niche. I've not yet handled the very latest Lewis jackets (most of them are too late in style- Sixties - for my preferences), but I'm sure they're great. I've handled a pair of Westway boots, and I'm still tempted.

Recently I bought a new Bronx from LL in seal brown hide and the quality is just superb. I will post some pictures of this jacket shortly.

Look forward to seeing that.

Edward, whilst I bow to your legal acumen and I know it's entirely legally defensible, it's probably that for many laypeople, the idea that a company can use a previously used trademark or product name is slightly confusing.

I'm not saying it's wrong but it's one of those parts of corporate law which (anyway is close to black magic for many) and for non-legal types has a little bit of riding on other's coattails. Doesn't worry me but I can understand where some of the furrowing of brows comes from.

The original point of a TM was as a guarantor of the origin of goods, but it has long since become simple 'branding', with most of the market (in the broadest possible sense) interested only in buying a brand rather than particularly caring about the product itself. Hence the phenomenon of the vastly over-priced, plain t-shirt with naught but a huge logo on it. Things are the way they are... I can see both sides of the argument really. Yes, it's a shame if someone can't make as accurate a repro as they'd like of of which they would otherwise be capable, but if you'd invested a considerable sum in registering a TM and building up brand awareness, would you be happy with the idea that someone else could come along and use the same brand mark for the same type of product? The only way forward is licensing deals, as John and Ken have done. Theirs works, of course, because they're not directly competing with each other. John is hand making jackets for the hardcore of the hardcore of the hardcore, Aero produce to a different niche as regards their A2s. On the other hand, to do that for ELC, who compete directly with Aero, would be daft. Another element to consider here is that if Aero don't protect their mark and it becomes too generic, they will lose it - which would mean they couldn't protect it for their civilian jackets either. There are already a handful of sellers on eBay at any given time misappropriating Aero's RTM in order to manipulate search returns... one seller, who used to post here, does so persistently. This sort of thing could become the norm and quite permissible if Aero did not actively protect their brand. Complete can o' worms.

I would be interested to know the status of the Rough Wear TM. Precisely what rights do Eastman have to use the RW name? If they own the TM then presumably they must have allowed Good Wear and Bill Kelso and other firms to use Rough Wear labels on their jackets. Was this done under license?

If they own the mark, the only way others can use it is if ELC fail to protect it or under licence. I'd be surprised if ELC owned it and licensed direct competitors to use it; could be that either someone who is happy to licence to all-comers owns it, or no-one really doesand it has become generic in this market. [huh]

The other possibility is that different people have registered it in different territories.... a RTM in the US does not guarantee RTM protection in England or Greece, for example. Then they'd have to go for common-law passing off and goodwill and such, which can be much harder to prove. I'd suspect the likelihood is that Roughwear isn't really owned by anyone now, or that if ELC do own it they only have it registered for the UK.

Doesn't Aero 'own' the Aero name(trademark)..?? Isn't that how ELC got in some trouble a few years ago by using the name Aero on some A2s..?? Seems I recall Aero objecting to that.
HD

Yes, they do.

Wasn't there some story about the people who "own" the Irvin name (and producing an absolute garbage product, btw) trying to stop eBay auctions for original Irvins referring to them as such? I seem to have a vague memory in my head along these lines.

Simon Green of Aviation Leathercraft bought Irvin Air Cute TM along with some of their wartime sewing machines in the 1970s. Aviation Leathercraft is now part of Moto-Lita Ltd and anyone who uses the Irvin name to advertise a repro jacket on Ebay is liable to find their auctions blocked. It's such a shame that the firm that bought the Irvin Air Chute name does not offer 100% accurate Irvins.

It's an irony, isn't it? Probably the least accurate reproducer on the market is the only one that can use the name. That's how it works, though.

Could they not produce their current jackets for the open car enthusiasts and offer a more authentic garment for those who appreciate the fine points of originals? With the 75th anniversary of the B0B next year it would be a perfect time to produce a stitch for stitch copy of an original 1940 Irvin.

No, honestly - I don`t think these buyers care a hoot about originality. Here in Denmark, every owner of a Morgan car wears a Irvin jacket by rule. I do believe, that ALC is selling so many jackets, that they do not have to care much about originality at all. When I bought my ALC, I too didn`t know much about anything, and were truly happy to purchase one. I have had a good use of it, wearing it often in our colder climate here, and have come to love my jacket, though it being a lesser accurate Irvin. It is very well made and very warm, but still a shame that it is to be one of the least accurate jackets, to bear the name.

I tend to agree... ALC do very well indeed, it seems, out of a very different market. While they can offer the Irvin name, that alone is no guarantee that they can establish a foothold in an already well-served niche market (likely much , much smaller than their existing market). It'd certainly be a big risk given the investment costs of sinking money into developing patterns and all the necessary backdrop to getting such a product to market. I can't see them licensing the name to Aero or ELC or whomever, because that's their brand and what they sell - why risk a competitor's page coming up tops on a Google search for your mark if you're selling to folks who don't care about the details and thus might buy the first one they find? They could always, I suppose, have a special run of jackets done with outsourced production, but I honstly suspect for all the new trade it would bring them, they'd be far better served from a business point of view to simple stick a "75th Anniversary!" sticker on the label and tht would sell it as well.

It did occur to me that when JC mentioned earlier that he was looking at introducing a more off-the-shelf jacket (relatively speaking) to his specification, he might be partnering with Aero to make this happen - can't think of anyone better suited to the task. No idea if it's the case, but would make sense.

To the best of my knowledge, Aero are the only one of the big players in this niche market that have a track record of making up big orders for other companiesto sell under their brands - most particularly the Levis collaboration. It would be an interesting collaboration, certainly. My only regret is not being in a position to have bought one of John's jackets back when they were coming in at GBP400, before the value of the pound dropped throught the floor against the dollar (at one point it was as low as GBP1.00 to USD1.50) and pushed the cost over my ceiling.