Horween or Shinki- Whose horse is your pick?

[handymike]

Great things have been said of each. I'd love to see what colors are out there and pictures of how they're aging.

 

[Tomasso]

In basketball parlance your query would read: Who do you like better Michael Jordan or Spud Webb?

 

[handymike]

Ahh, but different styles. And to truly appreciate the differences one would need to see them in action.
So everyone- Please show us some photos!

 

[Ishmael]

Not sure that the M.J. vs. Spud Webb analogy is the most appropriate. Spud Webb was the shortest, not the worst. M.J. was the greatest, not the tallest.

I'll throw this out there just to stir things up a bit, and to put in a good word for Shinki (i.e. one of two shell cordovan makers in the world, and the supplier for nearly all Japanese fine leather crafters as well as John Chapman at Good Wear). This is from David Himel, of Himel Brothers, blog. It's overly polemical, and he of course is aiming to create his own distinctive niche market. But it nonetheless suggests that this might be more a Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson (or Kobe Bryant or whoever) type of competition.

"Shinki leather is the most revered and most expensive horsehide in the world. Shinki is one of the last veg. tanned cordovan makers left. It takes 3 months for an order to come through and almost one year to make the leather, so like a fine winery the leather is always prepared a year in advance. What makes them so special is the quality of the hides from the start, which are then cured for months in mimosa bark tanning solution and then dried. These hides have the perfect balance of strong shrunken grain, character on the surface, lack of scarring and flexibility. It is often a misnomer when people speak of the “thickness” of a hide. They are almost always speaking about the hand or temper of the leather which is related to grain, milling, tannage and the oilstuffs and finishes that are put back onto the skin. Garment leather is almost always ranging from .9 mm to 3.5 mm or 2 oz to 3.5 oz hides. Beyond this weight the leather is too thick to sew, and too thick to bend easily. Most other tanneries cannot produce leather this way, so they cheat using chrome tanning with a veg. solution applied after,and they use grain correction to fix surface scarring. These leathers come out plastic looking and very smooth and take years to break in. Worse, because the grain is not shrunken, there is less density in the fibres. We pride ourselves in the best leathers and owe this knowledge to John Chapman of Goodwear Leather."

http://www.himelbrothersleather.com/

But, pics would be better than analogies and polemics!

 

[Tomasso]

Not sure that the M.J. vs. Spud Webb analogy is the most appropriate. Spud Webb was the shortest, not the worst. M.J. was the greatest, not the tallest.

I wasn't referring to height. Spud Webb (not the shortest) was a very exciting player to watch because of his jumping ability in relation to his size......but he wasn't Mike.

 

[handymike]

So which hide relates to which player in your opinion, and why?

 

[jimmer_5]

So which hide relates to which player in your opinion, and why?

Yes - if Shinki is that good, where does Horween fit into this scenario?

 

[too much coffee]

For my money, it's Horween all the way. Just based on their track record of supplying to Lost Worlds, Aero, Alden and other premium leather artisans.
I don't fully understand the above quoted piece about Shinki from Himel Bros. but I don't like the wording of the part that I do understand.

What I also understand is the look, feel, smell, comfort and protection one gets from the leather products produced by the builders I have mentioned. In other words...."Why go out for hamburger when you have steak at home."

 

[thor]

Hey Coffee, your post is dead on, IMHO (and your analogy is much clearer then the Spud Webb-Michael Jordan thing). Horween offers some great leather and in turn is crafted into the masterpieces of LW, Aero, Alden, etc.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I doubt anyone here is truly qualified to state a definitive answer. Are there any professional leather tanners here to offer an informed opinion on the relative merits of old-style vs newer tanning methods/solutions? I've seen and smelt a goatskin tannery, but I don't know anything about the process, beyond the words veg and chrome. People like to use the words to sound knowledgable, and there's various opinions on what's better or worse. I know what D. Himel is getting at in terms of the traditional tanning methods vs modern and the various cheating that goes on with scarred hides.

Personally, I would just leave it that both companies seem to provide good hides, which is all that matters for customers. Some jacket mfrs opt for Horween, others for different hide providers.

 

[Don Tomaso]

I doubt anyone here is truly qualified to state a definitive answer. Are there any professional leather tanners here to offer an informed opinion on the relative merits of old-style vs newer tanning methods/solutions? I've seen and smelt a goatskin tannery, but I don't know anything about the process, beyond the words veg and chrome. People like to use the words to sound knowledgable, and there's various opinions on what's better or worse. I know what D. Himel is getting at in terms of the traditional tanning methods vs modern and the various cheating that goes on with scarred hides.

Personally, I would just leave it that both companies seem to provide good hides, which is all that matters for customers. Some jacket mfrs opt for Horween, others for different hide providers.

I'ld say this is spot on, thanks.

 

[handymike]

I suppose the next question would be if any of you have a Goodwear or a Himmel? I've had an aero and can attest that after years of wear it's still very substantial. But I've never worn a Goodwear. I'm sure the Shinki doesn't come cheap.
Why would someone as obsessed with quality as JC go to Japan?
Maybe someone could chime in that has both.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That's easy. The Japanese are utterly obsessed with quality. When a group of Japanese set themselves to do something exactly as it used to be done, that's what results - exact reproduction of methods, processes, colourways, etc. The Japanese vintage repro clothing makers are renowned for this obsessive attention to detail, the kind of detail the American repro mfrs just don't come close to. Of course, you pay through the nose for such detail. There's a story of Japanese denim repro people going through the US in the 80s, buying up all the narrow looms - along with vintage Levis - they could get their hands on, so that the denim they produced would be made on the correct size loom.

I know that D. Himel was searching for a hide that was as close as possible to the vintage 1920s-40s hides he dealt with in the rag trade. Aero, for example, use hides that are generally too heavy to be vintage-correct, IMO. The only vintage hides that come close to the weight of the Aero horsehides I've seen/handled (Highwayman, Brando style MC jackets etc.) are the notorious German "Heavy Bull" hides. If you want that kind of niche leather mfr market, Japan is the place to look.

Why would someone as obsessed with quality as JC go to Japan?

 

[crimsonofsam]

That's easy. The Japanese are utterly obsessed with quality. When a group of Japanese set themselves to do something exactly as it used to be done, that's what results - exact reproduction of methods, processes, colourways, etc. The Japanese vintage repro clothing makers are renowned for this obsessive attention to detail, the kind of detail the American repro mfrs just don't come close to. Of course, you pay through the nose for such detail. There's a story of Japanese denim repro people going through the US in the 80s, buying up all the narrow looms - along with vintage Levis - they could get their hands on, so that the denim they produced would be made on the correct size loom.

I know that D. Himel was searching for a hide that was as close as possible to the vintage 1920s-40s hides he dealt with in the rag trade. Aero, for example, use hides that are generally too heavy to be vintage-correct, IMO. The only vintage hides that come close to the weight of the Aero horsehides I've seen/handled (Highwayman, Brando style MC jackets etc.) are the notorious German "Heavy Bull" hides. If you want that kind of niche leather mfr market, Japan is the place to look.

Hammer meets nail.Same thing goes for guitars.A few years ago the next best guitar to a vintage Strat or Tele was a Japanese copy.

 

[Ishmael]

For my money, it's Horween all the way. Just based on their track record of supplying to Lost Worlds, Aero, Alden and other premium leather artisans.
I don't fully understand the above quoted piece about Shinki from Himel Bros. but I don't like the wording of the part that I do understand.

What I also understand is the look, feel, smell, comfort and protection one gets from the leather products produced by the builders I have mentioned. In other words...."Why go out for hamburger when you have steak at home."

Hey Coffee, your post is dead on, IMHO (and your analogy is much clearer then the Spud Webb-Michael Jordan thing). Horween offers some great leather and in turn is crafted into the masterpieces of LW, Aero, Alden, etc.

I would agree with Coffee's post if it was steak & steak. Steak & hamburger seems unfair to me. Haven't seen too many people on here referring to John Chapman's work as plain ol' hamburger in a world of steaks.

To me, Baron Kurtz is dead on.

 

[handymike]

Maybe manufacturer choice also depends on sheer volume of hides. It seems that Aero makes a lot of jackets, whereas JC and Himmel are smaller enterprises. Perhaps Shinki isn't set up to produce tanned hides on the same sort of scale as Horween.

 

[too much coffee]

Right on handymike......that's kinda what I was alluding to. I had a Goodwear A-2 with the Japanese horsehide and the leather was great but obviously in an A-2 type weight; what maximum of 2.5 - 3oz. HH?

For heavy FQHH currently offered by Aero and Lost Worlds they at the top of my list. Perhaps if the Shinki HH was more prevelent in the U.S. and had more exposure it could be evaluated more fairly. But at twice the price or more of the Aero/LW products, I for one cannot afford Himel Bros. collection of jackets to make that comparison.

John Chapman using Shinki leather is a top notch endorsement but I've only seen it used on an A-2. So my comment about "steak and hamburger" may not be the best analogy but I know what I'm getting with Aero and LW and I can't afford (literally) to take a chance with the Himel line.

Furthermore I never called JC's products "hamburger." If I ever purchase another A-2, it will be from Goodwear.

Regards,
coffee

 

[andyfalzon]

"Shinki leather is the most revered and most expensive horsehide in the world. Shinki is one of the last veg. tanned cordovan makers left. It takes 3 months for an order to come through and almost one year to make the leather, so like a fine winery the leather is always prepared a year in advance. What makes them so special is the quality of the hides from the start, which are then cured for months in mimosa bark tanning solution and then dried. These hides have the perfect balance of strong shrunken grain, character on the surface, lack of scarring and flexibility. It is often a misnomer when people speak of the “thickness” of a hide. They are almost always speaking about the hand or temper of the leather which is related to grain, milling, tannage and the oilstuffs and finishes that are put back onto the skin. Garment leather is almost always ranging from .9 mm to 3.5 mm or 2 oz to 3.5 oz hides. Beyond this weight the leather is too thick to sew, and too thick to bend easily. Most other tanneries cannot produce leather this way, so they cheat using chrome tanning with a veg. solution applied after,and they use grain correction to fix surface scarring. These leathers come out plastic looking and very smooth and take years to break in. Worse, because the grain is not shrunken, there is less density in the fibres. We pride ourselves in the best leathers and owe this knowledge to John Chapman of Goodwear Leather."

The above statement has a number of inaccuracies.
Shinki leather is not the most revered and certainly not the most expensive horsehide in the world. But sure it's a high quality leather.
8-9 mm is 2oz and 3oz is 1.1 - 1.2mm
3.5 mm is not 3.5 oz, when 2mm is 5 oz
I don't think once can easily find garment leather at 3.5mm

I doubt anyone here is truly qualified to state a definitive answer. Are there any professional leather tanners here to offer an informed opinion on the relative merits of old-style vs newer tanning methods/solutions?

I am not a tanner but I know many. The old style tanning is natural. Use of natural ingredients and especially the extra time required to produce the leathers makes them more expensive. Sure the result is better than chrome, otherwise they wouldn't bother to do it. Veg tanned leathers age better than chrome.

 

[ButteMT61]

All I know is that the new GW Shinki HH is the best I've seen. Now, that doesn't mean others I have /had aren't/weren't spectacular, but this new jacket is like no other I've owned.

 

[Deleted member 16736]

I've owned jackets with Horween FQHH and Shinki Aniline/Veg Tanned HH. Both were excellent quality. I preferred the Shinki leather because it was lighter and had more grain. Plus since it's veg tanned, I know it won't turn funny colors in 20 years.