Hitler remains not Hitler.

[Carlisle Blues]

"He made it to Brazil.

"He fled to Greenland

"He disguised himself in a refugee camp and slipped away to the Bavarian mountains.

"He was smuggled aboard a U-boat and spend the rest of his days shielded by Argentina's right wing strongmen."

he died at the bunker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to "breathe life into the old monster".




:deadhorse ______

I think he is here as a member of the Fedora Lounge.....

 

[Carlisle Blues]

If you read Frederick Forsyth's book "The Odessa File" it shows that they felt no guilt at all and went as far as saying they helped Germany.

The Odessa File is a "thriller" novel by Frederick Forsyth, first published in 1972, about the adventures of a young German reporter attempting to discover the location of a former SS concentration-camp commander.

The name ODESSA is an acronym for the German phrase "Organisation der ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen", which translates as “Organization of Former Members of the SS”. The novel alleges that ODESSA is an international Nazi organization established before the defeat of Nazi Germany for the purpose of protecting former members of the SS after the war instead of a war veterans' group.

 

[Diamondback]

Wow that makes me uncomfortable to say the least. I mean I never thought it was right that he got a quick and easy death after waht did to all those people but I also don't like the idea of him getting away either.

Nobody escapes justice forever... in the end, we all have to settle accounts one way or another, be it in the here-and-now or the hereafter. And in some ways, it might almost be more punishing if he had to live a while with realizing he was a complete, total, and utter failure... Doesn't have that reassuring finality of a bullet in the skull, although for what he did even that was too good.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I think he is here as a member of the Fedora Lounge.....

To quote Arte Johnson; "Verrrry Intarestink! But....schtupid!!" (LOL)

(Correction: Arte ain't dead yet! That was Henry Gibson that died a couple of weeks ago.)

 

[LordBest]

Well, quite. But it is important to know how. Neo-Nazi groups use the story of his suicide to paint the whole episode as a noble last stand. Far better if he was just shot by disgruntled subordinates because he was too much a coward to take his own life.
There was a forensic chap who went over all the evidence some years ago and came to the conclusion that Hitler was murdered and Eva Braun sent into hiding, in order to give the last moments of the Reich some mythic qualities.
Whatever happened these sorts of forensic investigations are important, as apart from them we only have the eye-witness accounts of Hitlers most loyal followers. Hardly reliable, in my opinion. Even the Soviets noted huge inconsistency in their stories.

"He made it to Brazil.

"He fled to Greenland

"He disguised himself in a refugee camp and slipped away to the Bavarian mountains.

"He was smuggled aboard a U-boat and spend the rest of his days shielded by Argentina's right wing strongmen."

he died at the bunker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to "breathe life into the old monster".



:deadhorse ______

 

[HadleyH]

Well, quite. But it is important to know how. Neo-Nazi groups use the story of his suicide to paint the whole episode as a noble last stand. Far better if he was just shot by disgruntled subordinates because he was too much a coward to take his own life.

As far as I'm concerned, we already know how he died. He died in that bunker. No use in listening to new theories that pop up every five years. The matter is dead and buried.


One more thing... is suicide an act of bravery or cowardice? I think is more likely an act of cowardice, not wanting to face reality, in his case the loss of the war, so his suicide ( in my eyes at least) was not a noble last stand at all, on the contrary, his biggest last act of cowardice.

 

[BellyTank]

WE don't know ANYTHING- only what we're told.


B
T

 

[LordBest]

Suicide is considered more honourable than capture, in war time at least. It was particularly important in German military circles, I understand. That Field Marshal chappie who surrendered at Stalingrad was considered disgraced by the Nazi hierarchy for choosing capture over suicide.
In my opinion it was a great blow that the Allies were not able to recover his corpse and put it on display to lay this matter to rest permanently. Of course, that is precisely why his corpse was burnt. Except, of course, we now know that wasn't his corpse. Without forensic evidence all we have is the word of Hitler's best chums.

As far as I'm concerned, we already know how he died. He died in that bunker. No use in listening to new theories that pop up every five years. The matter is dead and buried.


One more thing... is suicide an act of bravery or cowardice? I think is more likely an act of cowardice, not wanting to face reality, in his case the loss of the war, so his suicide ( in my eyes at least) was not a noble last stand at all, on the contrary, his biggest last act of cowardice.

 

[HadleyH]

WE don't know ANYTHING- only what we're told.


B
T

Yeah right. Well i wanna see the little green martians that NASA is hiding from us!

C'mon B T

 

[Spitfire]

Hitler died in that bunker.
And when he stood in front of Saint Peter at the gate to heaven, Saint Peter looked through his files, and decided that Hitler could not enter.
So he asked him if he wanted another chance. If he would be prepared to go back to earth.
Hitler agreed to that, and when Saint Peter asked if he would do everything over once again, Hitler answered:
"Ja - but zis time - no more mister nice guy!"

 

[Edward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4DW1uvsAE

They escaped to the Dark Side of the Moon, from a secret base in Antarctica, in 1945.

Ha, I'm gagging to see that - so cruel that there's only a trailer so far!!

I never knew he already wasn't.
So, he's still not then..?


B
T

lol

Plenty of Nazi war criminals escaped, even if their boss didn't. If you read Frederick Forsyth's book "The Odessa File" it shows that they felt no guilt at all and went as far as saying they helped Germany. It's more frightening to think that to an extent it was true that in the 1960s no one in Germany really wanted to catch war criminals.

Meh, I wouldn't take Forsyth's word on anything (completely aside from the fact that this was a work of fiction), having seem him on Question Time. Ghastly little man. Without getting into politics, though, I'd be a lot more prepared to look down on any German reluctance to see their war criminals punished when the allied side even admit to theirs.

"He made it to Brazil.

"He fled to Greenland

"He disguised himself in a refugee camp and slipped away to the Bavarian mountains.

"He was smuggled aboard a U-boat and spend the rest of his days shielded by Argentina's right wing strongmen."

he died at the bunker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to "breathe life into the old monster".



:deadhorse ______

Yeah, well. I find it interesting, myself... but then I don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy. [huh]

A great book is "Inside the Fourth Reich" "The real story of the Nazis in Brazil by the hunter they feared the most!" Written by Erich Erdstein "The Nazi Hunter" Although I'm a huge fan of the conspiracy theory, 4th Reich, Hitler escaped, or his chronies did to rise again novels. Most I come across seem to have been written in the mid eighties before Hitler and his henchmen would have been too old to pull anything off.

Matt

Yes, given the reality that they would all be well over a hundred and therefore most likely dead by now makes for a less thrilling story in some respects. I do believe that that was probably the alst time in history that it would have been reasonably plausible to disappear off-grid and still lead something resembling a bearable life - with the advances in DNA profiling, the pervasiveness of the media, and so on and so forth nowadays, it would be, I should think, a practical impossibility for any world leader to simply disappear in such circumstances.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Nothing like stating the obvious:

Adolf Hitler born, 20 April 1889. He was a terrible person why does anyone really care if he died in the bunker. He had done his damage to humanity and left his legacy long before the alleged suicide in the bunker. What historical value does that information have anyway? Even if he did escape he would have been totally ineffectual as a theorist, leader or even a person.

Adolf Hitler’s personality was investigated posthumously for the assessment of personality, clinical, and neuropsychological disorders. Five academic Hitler historians completed the tests. The highest mean scores were Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, Psychotic Thinking and Schizophrenia, Paranoid Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sadistic Personality Disorder . (See Frederick L. Coolidge, Felicia L. Davis, & Daniel L. Segal, University of Colorado at Colorado Springs)

Others assert that Hitler had borderline personality disorder and met all the criteria of Asperger syndrome.

Hitler was a drug addict using amphetamine occasionally after 1937 and became addicted to amphetamine after the late summer of 1942.

His health included tremors and irregular heartbeat during the last years of his life could have been symptoms of tertiary (late stage) syphilis, which would mean he had had a syphilis infection for many years.

It has also been speculated Hitler had Parkinson's disease. Newsreels of Hitler show he had tremors in his hand and a shuffling walk (also a symptom of tertiary syphilis, see above) which began before the war and continued to worsen until the end of his life.

 

[LordBest]

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing he may have survived the end of the war. But how he died at the end of the war IS important, not least for the families of the millions of victims of WWII. But also because the mystery around his death allows neo-Nazi groups to paint it in an heroic light. I saw a rather chilling documentary on the subject some years ago.

Nothing like stating the obvious:

Adolf Hitler born, 20 April 1889. He was a terrible person why does anyone really care if he died in the bunker. He had done his damage to humanity and left his legacy long before the alleged suicide in the bunker. What historical value does that information have anyway? Even if he did escape he would have been totally ineffectual as a theorist, leader or even a person.

Adolf Hitler’s personality was investigated posthumously for the assessment of personality, clinical, and neuropsychological disorders. Five academic Hitler historians completed the tests. The highest mean scores were Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, Psychotic Thinking and Schizophrenia, Paranoid Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sadistic Personality Disorder . (See Frederick L. Coolidge, Felicia L. Davis, & Daniel L. Segal, University of Colorado at Colorado Springs)

Others assert that Hitler had borderline personality disorder and met all the criteria of Asperger syndrome.

Hitler was a drug addict using amphetamine occasionally after 1937 and became addicted to amphetamine after the late summer of 1942.

His health included tremors and irregular heartbeat during the last years of his life could have been symptoms of tertiary (late stage) syphilis, which would mean he had had a syphilis infection for many years.

It has also been speculated Hitler had Parkinson's disease. Newsreels of Hitler show he had tremors in his hand and a shuffling walk (also a symptom of tertiary syphilis, see above) which began before the war and continued to worsen until the end of his life.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing he may have survived the end of the war. But how he died at the end of the war IS important, not least for the families of the millions of victims of WWII. But also because the mystery around his death allows neo-Nazi groups to paint it in an heroic light. I saw a rather chilling documentary on the subject some years ago.

There is nothing heroic about suicide, it is a coward's way out, in this situation.

Unless you have personal knowledge, based in fact, of who wants to know how he died, your assumption is purely academic.

 

[BellyTank]

Yeah right. Well i wanna see the little green martians that NASA is hiding from us!

C'mon B T

C'mon, yerself-
Roll your eyes as much as you want.

News is news- true, or false.
The public believes what it's told, especially if it sounds good,
or offers closure.

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist- it's just the nature of news/propaganda- to be manipulated.


B
T

 

[LordBest]

I'm sorry, but for thousands of years Western leaders have considered suicide as the more honourable option than capture. If they were captured they could expect nothing but humiliation and execution. Death before dishonour, and all that.
I'd say my assumption is far from academic, given the mass of news coverage and chatter on news sites and blogs. The idea that no one cares about the truth of what happened to one of histories greatest monsters is far more astounding, in my opinion. Without forensic evidence all we have is the word of those most loyal to Hitler, you will forgive me if I do not take it at face value.
Anyway, merely covering ground that was covered previously, shan't be delving further into it for fear of starting a rather pointless argument.

There is nothing heroic about suicide, it is a coward's way out, in this situation.

Unless you have personal knowledge, based in fact, of who wants to know how he died, your assumption is purely academic.

 

[BellyTank]

I think that the act of suicide being considered heroic vs. cowardly, really depends on the situation and especially the state of mind- sanity/insanity.
Most suicides we hear about, are people of dubious mental condition.

We hear about wartime "heroes" taking their own lives, to avoid capture and protect others but at the same time, I really doubt if wartime offers much mental, or emotional stability, or clarity.


B
T

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I'm sorry, but for thousands of years Western leaders have considered suicide as the more honourable option than capture. If they were captured they could expect nothing but humiliation and execution. Death before dishonour, and all that.
I'd say my assumption is far from academic, given the mass of news coverage and chatter on news sites and blogs. The idea that no one cares about the truth of what happened to one of histories greatest monsters is far more astounding, in my opinion. Without forensic evidence all we have is the word of those most loyal to Hitler, you will forgive me if I do not take it at face value.
Anyway, merely covering ground that was covered previously, shan't be delving further into it for fear of starting a rather pointless argument.

Hitler's war was lost....He was to face the consequences not conceal secrets or protect the "state". Sounds like cowardice to me.

The buzz on the internet is just that.....a buzz. When I see those you have cited express an interest; then of course I would change my perspective.

 

[avedwards]

The Odessa File is a "thriller" novel by Frederick Forsyth, first published in 1972, about the adventures of a young German reporter attempting to discover the location of a former SS concentration-camp commander.

The name ODESSA is an acronym for the German phrase "Organisation der ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen", which translates as “Organization of Former Members of the SS”. The novel alleges that ODESSA is an international Nazi organization established before the defeat of Nazi Germany for the purpose of protecting former members of the SS after the war instead of a war veterans' group.

True, but the novel is correct as far as that ODESSA did exist and aided war criminals to escape. It's also correct in saying that the West Germany authorities did little to catch war criminals. The rest of course, is fiction.

Others assert that Hitler had borderline personality disorder and met all the criteria of Asperger syndrome.

I think it's highly likely that Hitler had a lot of psychological problems, but I know people with Asperger's syndrome who are a lot more "normal" and less sadistic than Mr Hitler was. Whatever Hitler had was IMHO a lot more than just Asperger's.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.




One thing's for sure: he's dead now.



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