Himel: An Existential Review

[ton312]

You are kinda paying for bespoke in that price, and part of something bespoke is the experience of creating something custom. So then we get back to the experience factoring heavily into the perceived value.

For that kind of scratch, you desrve the full "girlfriend" experience. But yeah, at the very least, honest communiction. I know that when I was chasing custom jackets, even when the timeline had been blown, the occaasional email that just let me know I wasn't forgotten about was very soothing. This is a nusance for the seller but it's also vital. You can create a lifetime customer this way.

I would also agree that you aren't getting much more than you would with RMC or other like makers. Perhaps some exotic proprietary hide (if such a thing exists?) so the total package should be more than simply:

Add to cart >>> Proceed to checkout.

 

[Geekrobot]

For that kind of scratch, you desrve the full "girlfriend" experience. But yeah, at the very least, honest communiction. I know that when I was chasing custom jackets, even when the timeline had been blown, the occaasional email that just let me know I wasn't forgotten about was very soothing. This is a nusance for the seller but it's also vital. You can create a lifetime customer this way.

I would also agree that you aren't getting much more than you would with RMC or other like makers. Perhaps some exotic proprietary hide (if such a thing exists?) so the total package should be more than simply:

Add to cart >>> Proceed to checkout.

100% -- when I've spent Himel money on any girlfriend, they definitely treated me a lot nicer! But that's a big point, I don't need a nightly 'so what are you thinking about' check in -- but I don't wanna have to touch base with them every time they blow one of their own deadlines and don't communicate, like I'm their project manager -- I got enough of that shit to deal with at work.

 

[DorKlonn]

blow one of their own deadlines and don't communicate

Hitting the nail on the head right here, I don't mind delays as long as the delays or pushback is communicated way in advance or atleast before I have to personally ask you for an update. I find it so weird that such basic courtesy is not really common. I don't want to have to pay for a hefty commission and then also become the said project manager of said commission, just keep me in the loop instead of hoping that I forget to ask about an update.

 

[TheDonEffect]

Hmm, this may be unfair, but my biggest takeaway from all this is you're paying tier 1 prices to get a masterpiece that's not made by the master, all while getting tier 3 service.

Living here in CA, I get dealing with artists is different from dealing with a professional business, artists sorta march to their own beat. It's why art dealers exist, bridges the gap between consumers and artists. Retailers in general actually. But you put up with it because the value in those pieces, imo, is that it's made by the artist. If the artist isn't making it, then what's the point?

Further consider that even jackets at these levels are reproductions, or vastly influenced by, an earlier work, so these aren't one off completely unique original designs.

 

[Geekrobot]

Hmm, this may be unfair, but my biggest takeaway from all this is you're paying tier 1 prices to get a masterpiece that's not made by the master, all while getting tier 3 service.

Living here in CA, I get dealing with artists is different from dealing with a professional business, artists sorta march to their own beat. It's why art dealers exist, bridges the gap between consumers and artists. Retailers in general actually. But you put up with it because the value in those pieces, imo, is that it's made by the artist. If the artist isn't making it, then what's the point?

Further consider that even jackets at these levels are reproductions, or vastly influenced by, an earlier work, so these aren't one off completely unique original designs.

Yes, true on all counts. Even if Himel is considered the artist or the master in this case, I don't think he's ever been the actual cutter or sewer, more a creative director type, who has analyzed the patterns and identified some styles and hides to offer via his brand. So it's more his entire team is the group of artists at his shop, remaking modified or repro versions of masterpieces (while giving tier 3 service due to there being no 'dealer' middleman, as you work directly with the 'director').

I work as a lead artist in my career, too, but if I treated a client like I was treated, I would certainly hear about it from my boss. David did apologize on the phone, but there wasn't really much done about it, and the relationship did even seem to degrade further from there, so there wasn't any real course correction besides the fact that I got my jacket a couple weeks later.

Most jackets we drool over these days are reproductions, so I can't really fault him on that aspect of his business. Even esteemed joints like RMC are strictly repros of golden era masterpieces. Fashion houses like Dior Homme, Junya Watanabe, etc. all directly take influence from those, too, and just remix them. Even a heritage brand like Lewis Leathers, as much as I love their designs, is basically run by new owners who have the rights to the name and all the old patterns, not by the family or original designers themselves.

Is Aero still run by its original owners? I think Langlitz and Schott might be. Such heritage brands are probably the closest thing you can get to the product being made by the masters, when it comes to leather jackets, anyway.

 

[dannyk]

Dont know about Langlitz but Schott definitely still is. They are on like 4th generation of the Schott family running the business. We can debate whether they are doing a good job, or are their products worth it etc.......but it is nice its still technically a family business run with a small close knit team-even if their reach and designs have grown and changed over the years.

 

[Brandrea33]

Yes, true on all counts. Even if Himel is considered the artist or the master in this case, I don't think he's ever been the actual cutter or sewer, more a creative director type, who has analyzed the patterns and identified some styles and hides to offer via his brand. So it's more his entire team is the group of artists at his shop, remaking modified or repro versions of masterpieces (while getting tier 3 service due to there being no 'dealer' middleman, as you work directly with the 'director').

I work as a lead artist in my career, too, but if I treated a client like I was treated, I would certainly hear about it from my boss. David did apologize on the phone, but there wasn't really much done about it, and the relationship did even seem to degrade further from there, so there wasn't any real course correction besides the fact that I got my jacket a couple weeks later.

Most jackets we drool over these days are reproductions, so I can't really fault him on that aspect of his business. Even esteemed joints like RMC are strictly repros of golden era masterpieces. Fashion houses like Dior Homme, Junya Watanabe, etc. all directly take influence from those, too, and just remix them. Even a heritage brand like Lewis Leathers, as much as I love their designs, is basically run by new owners who have the rights to the name and all the old patterns, not by the family or original designers themselves.

Is Aero still run by its original owners? I think Langlitz and Schott might be. Such heritage brands are probably the closest thing you can get to the product being made by the masters, when it comes to leather jackets, anyway.

I agree with some of what you said above, but in my very humble opinion, one of David’s strengths is that most of his designs are his own creations and not straight up repos Including yours … which is beautiful by the way

 

[dannyk]

I agree with some of what you said above, but in my very humble opinion, one of David’s strengths is that most of his designs are his own creations and not straight up repos Including yours … which is beautiful by the way

WIth whats being talked about now it brings up an interesting further debate haha. Cause if theres something we all love here its debating and going off on tangents.

But artist versus craftsmen. If Himel is literally sitting down and drawing and designing his jackets then he deserves a world of credit and is certainly a great artist. For like you said they are not just straight repros. For even the best repros makers they are essentially just reverse engineering or copying older stuff and there isnt much art involved in that.

Yet the people actually putting the jackets together at the high tier level certainly deserve to be called crafts people and some of them even master craftspeople. Some of these makers just cut the cleanest lines, sew perfect holes and threads with nary a single loose thread.

So what do we call someone, and what are they actually doing? Does he create these jackets, sew these jackets, is he an artist and a craftsmen?

Ill end with this....to be fair I dont really care at all haha. I really dont care about this specific situation, I dont know the guy and his stuff is way out of my price range at the moment. I just like doing a thought experiment; its fun to me. So no one has to answer, add to, or even respond to this....just thinking out loud.

 

[Brandrea33]

WIth whats being talked about now it brings up an interesting further debate haha. Cause if theres something we all love here its debating and going off on tangents.

But artist versus craftsmen. If Himel is literally sitting down and drawing and designing his jackets then he deserves a world of credit and is certainly a great artist. For like you said they are not just straight repros. For even the best repros makers they are essentially just reverse engineering or copying older stuff and there isnt much art involved in that.

Yet the people actually putting the jackets together at the high tier level certainly deserve to be called crafts people and some of them even master craftspeople. Some of these makers just cut the cleanest lines, sew perfect holes and threads with nary a single loose thread.

So what do we call someone, and what are they actually doing? Does he create these jackets, sew these jackets, is he an artist and a craftsmen?

Ill end with this....to be fair I dont really care at all haha. I really dont care about this specific situation, I dont know the guy and his stuff is way out of my price range at the moment. I just like doing a thought experiment; its fun to me. So no one has to answer, add to, or even respond to this....just thinking out loud.

I hear you and well said.

In my very humble opinion I guess I’d call David the creative artist. His sewers are craftspeople.

 

[Canuck Panda]

OP's Himel jacket is an East Coast Peter's. Or an aviator leathertog with a fan back. Very interesting design actually. I am quite certain a shop like San Fran's Peter's existed on the East Coast during that time period. And they most likely made the exact/similar jacket as OP's Himel. But the quantity is so scarce (like the Peter's) that no one know they existed.
I've read that Dave Himel was in the old jackets trade before he started the HB brand. Only he would know what went through his hands. Easier now with smartphones and built in cameras. But it wasn't long ago we were still taking photos with film, then big digital cameras.

 

[Edward]

Is Aero still run by its original owners?

Ken Calder established Aero in 1983; I believe he originally retired from running the business day to day (but still owned it and had a level of involvement) sometime around 2004, then came back in 2011/12 after the Lauder management's embezzlement. Ken helmed the company for the next few years and is still involved in the design side, though day to day running of the business has now passed on to Denny (Ken's son, who manages the factory floor) and Holly (Ken's daughter, runs the admin side). Both very helpful in my experience.

Lewis has changed hands, though Derek who now runs it did, I believe, work for the previous owner for a bit, and bought the brand directly from them as a going concern. Derek's big innovation there was turning Lewis into a heritage brand; previously, it had moved with the time, but as the British motorcycle industry had died out, and before the retro boom in 'Rocker Revival' stuff, Derek had bought back a lot of old jackets and recreated original patterns that were lost. I'd put that somewhere between "original owner continuity business" and "revived / reproduction" company. Not that any of the three is, in my opinion, inherently inferior, albeit that I do like to be aware of the difference. If someone has revived a 'dead' brand after a few decades and reproduces its original designs, I'm cool with that, as long as it is clear that's what they are doing and they don't try to pass it off as the same company. (I don't think I've yet seen a leather company try to carry that sleight of hand off, tho).

 

[Aloysius]

If someone has revived a 'dead' brand after a few decades and reproduces its original designs, I'm cool with that, as long as it is clear that's what they are doing and they don't try to pass it off as the same company. (I don't think I've yet seen a leather company try to carry that sleight of hand off, tho).

“Simmons Bilt” tries to play up its nonexistent Oakland heritage, especially in its marketing and collaborations with “Standard and Strange” (itself beyond parody when it comes to this kind of marketing nonsense.)

 

[TheDonEffect]

Yes, true on all counts. Even if Himel is considered the artist or the master in this case, I don't think he's ever been the actual cutter or sewer, more a creative director type, who has analyzed the patterns and identified some styles and hides to offer via his brand. So it's more his entire team is the group of artists at his shop, remaking modified or repro versions of masterpieces (while giving tier 3 service due to there being no 'dealer' middleman, as you work directly with the 'director').

I work as a lead artist in my career, too, but if I treated a client like I was treated, I would certainly hear about it from my boss. David did apologize on the phone, but there wasn't really much done about it, and the relationship did even seem to degrade further from there, so there wasn't any real course correction besides the fact that I got my jacket a couple weeks later.

Most jackets we drool over these days are reproductions, so I can't really fault him on that aspect of his business. Even esteemed joints like RMC are strictly repros of golden era masterpieces. Fashion houses like Dior Homme, Junya Watanabe, etc. all directly take influence from those, too, and just remix them. Even a heritage brand like Lewis Leathers, as much as I love their designs, is basically run by new owners who have the rights to the name and all the old patterns, not by the family or original designers themselves.

Is Aero still run by its original owners? I think Langlitz and Schott might be. Such heritage brands are probably the closest thing you can get to the product being made by the masters, when it comes to leather jackets, anyway.

Agreed, and really making repros within this context is not a knock... off (see what I did there?), but just underscores the distinction of art vs craft as others have mentioned.

I perused through some vintage jacket books and yeah, there are no real original designs anymore, unless you go completely outlandish, and even then. This space has very little room for true innovation, like designing a new stainless steel sport/dive watch, or work boot, or jeans.

With Himel, he's perhaps a better historian of jackets, and is able to find overloooked styles and reintroduce them, gain popularity before it gets popular (define hipster), etc. He turned me onto Cossacks for example.

My overall point though is that at those prices, it's no longer either or, because high quality is expected, and there has to be some romance to it, whether it's a master craftsman dutifully making you a one off piece, or an artist creating a work just for you. We are all special little snowflakes and like feeling as such, which is why one would spend this level of money.

The comparison I keep drawing to is Thedi. They both have a similar ethos to their companies, but with Thedi you are getting a style that is more uniquely Thedi, and as far as I know he's making the jackets or is intimately involved with the process.

Bottom line is at that price, his behavior is inexcusable. It's flat out arrogant and poor business management, and is the type of behavior consumers are leery of.

 

[TheDonEffect]

“Simmons Bilt” tries to play up its nonexistent Oakland heritage, especially in its marketing and collaborations with “Standard and Strange” (itself beyond parody when it comes to this kind of marketing nonsense.)

Yeah, I was excited about their Oakland heritage since I try to support our town business, but then saw it was all vapor. It's almost like cultural appropriation...

 

[Aloysius]

Yeah, I was excited about their Oakland heritage since I try to support our town business, but then saw it was all vapor. It's almost like cultural appropriation...

Yeah, Aero shares the name of an old New York company but you don’t see them going around talking about being from New York, lol.

Simmons using a repro Simmons Oakland label on their jackets is also weird, considering they’re Aero copies, not repros of the original Simmons. It would be like RMC using the Buco label on an A-2 and claiming to be from Detroit.

 

[Marc mndt]

Yeah, I was excited about their Oakland heritage since I try to support our town business, but then saw it was all vapor. It's almost like cultural appropriation...

It's quite a common practice actually for companies to buy the brand rights of no longer in business companies in order to use them for their current product offering. Think RMC and Buco, GW and California Sportwear. Or the Volkswagen Group and Bugatti, SAIC Motor and MG.

(Modern Bugatti cars are not design copies of original Bugatti cars, just like Simmons jackets are not copies of Simmons Oakland designs)

 

[Aloysius]

It's quite a common practice actually for companies to buy the brand rights of no longer in business companies in order to use them for their current product offering. Think RMC and Buco, GW and California Sportwear. Or the Volkswagen Group and Bugatti, SAIC Motor and MG.

(Modern Bugatti cars are not design copies of original Bugatti cars, just like Simmons jackets are not copies of Simmons Oakland designs)

While quite true, RMC does not pretend to be from Detroit, nor Sugar Cane from Massachusetts (Indian Motorcycle). SB markets based on Oakland heritage.

 

[barnabus]

Ken Calder established Aero in 1983; I believe he originally retired from running the business day to day (but still owned it and had a level of involvement) sometime around 2004, then came back in 2011/12 after the Lauder management's embezzlement. Ken helmed the company for the next few years and is still involved in the design side, though day to day running of the business has now passed on to Denny (Ken's son, who manages the factory floor) and Holly (Ken's daughter, runs the admin side). Both very helpful in my experience.

Lewis has changed hands, though Derek who now runs it did, I believe, work for the previous owner for a bit, and bought the brand directly from them as a going concern. Derek's big innovation there was turning Lewis into a heritage brand; previously, it had moved with the time, but as the British motorcycle industry had died out, and before the retro boom in 'Rocker Revival' stuff, Derek had bought back a lot of old jackets and recreated original patterns that were lost. I'd put that somewhere between "original owner continuity business" and "revived / reproduction" company. Not that any of the three is, in my opinion, inherently inferior, albeit that I do like to be aware of the difference. If someone has revived a 'dead' brand after a few decades and reproduces its original designs, I'm cool with that, as long as it is clear that's what they are doing and they don't try to pass it off as the same company. (I don't think I've yet seen a leather company try to carry that sleight of hand off, tho).

I suppose Goldtop is a revived 'dead' brand. But although they cite original 70s etc designs I don't think they're pretending to be the original company.

 

[Edward]

I suppose Goldtop is a revived 'dead' brand. But although they cite original 70s etc designs I don't think they're pretending to be the original company.

Yes - actually, that's one I had in mind when I wrote that but didn't put their name in as I didn't want it to sound critical of them. I've had contact with the new Goldtop, and they seem very nice. Also know someone who rides with one of their jackets and is well pleased. I'm hoping they eventually do a wider range of boots; a shorter, 12" version of the original Goldtop Trophy boots would be very cool. I agree, they've been very open they are reviving/reproducing an old brand rather than being the original company as such. Nice range of stuff, and they did well to jump on that niche providing something with a distinctly "British" retro-motorcycle feel, but that doesn't just look like a Lewis knock-off - and, for those who want it, designed to actually be treated as motorcycle ppe. I believe most of their range is now ECE certified. Someone else revivied the Mascot brand a few years ago, around 2015. FRom memory they had three leathers and one cordura jacket, but it seems they didn't take off, which was a shame. I think they closed the business either before or around the start of the Covid thing.

 

[El Marro]

“Simmons Bilt” tries to play up its nonexistent Oakland heritage, especially in its marketing and collaborations with “Standard and Strange” (itself beyond parody when it comes to this kind of marketing nonsense.)

“Born in Oakland…Made in Scotland” is a bit silly when you get right down to it. A few years ago my brother, who was an Oakland school teacher at the time, saw the label in one of my Simmons Bilt jackets with the mythical Oakland address on it. “Wow” he exclaimed “I didn’t know they made leather jackets in Oakland”.