Help ID fur of Cavanaugh w/ Cav Edge - new acquisition

[vonwotan]

Hello All,

I recently purchased this Cavanaugh in a very soft fur - much softer that any sheared beaver hats I own. The seller was not certain what fur was used. The hat is a dark chestnut brown with a lighter streak above the hatband. It is finished with a Cavanagh Edge. I love this new hat, it's sweatband is buttery soft as well and fits perfectly.

I would love to learn more about this particular hat, thoughts on what type of fur this might be, and suggestions for care.

Thank you.

Oops - photos

 

[Stoney]

Is it Mink? They made some like that in Mink back during the 60s and 70s.
It looks quite neat.

 

[vonwotan]

The seller thought it might be mink or seal. It is incredibly soft so mink would not surprise me. I have two beaver fur hats one sheared and one not along with one sealskin hat and all three are quite coarse and more substantial than this Cavanaugh.

 

[KObalto]

WOW!!!!!

That looks like a steal!

The seller thought it might be mink or seal. It is incredibly soft so mink would not surprise me. I have two beaver fur hats one sheared and one not along with one sealskin hat and all three are quite coarse and more substantial than this Cavanaugh.

 

[vonwotan]

KObalto - Thanks. When I had it in my hands I was quite surprised by the obvious quality and good condition. I was surprised to see only a handfull of bids for the hat so it was pretty cheap as well... I've searched the internet and the FL to find out more about Cavanagh, their hats and their styles in given periods. No joy so far on their non-felt fedoras.

That looks like a steal!

 

[Tango Yankee]

Hello All,

I recently purchased this Cavanaugh in a very soft fur - much softer that any sheared beaver hats I own.

Vonwotan,

I think I've got a couple of Cavanaghs similar to yours in the basement. I'll have to go dig them out and take a look at them to see if there's a tag or something that gives more info.

More tomorrow....

Tom

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I was once told that these hats were generally Hare fur. I have no idea if the informant knew his stuff or not, but that's what he said.

The felt was created in a similar way to a "standard" fur hat (which are mostly rabbit or hare, anyway; Rarely beaver.). But the hairs used were longer and the finished product wasn't shaved down.

They are lovely and soft, those long hair hats. I've owned 3 1930s ones, all passed on now. And i know many other members here also own these long hair type hats. Yours looks like it's 60s or later.

bk

p.s. Can you do a picture of the edge in close-up? I know it says 'Cavanaugh Edge' but it's looking much more like an overwelt in the current pictures.

 

[vonwotan]

BK - Thank you. Hare would make sense as well. The hairs are finer than beaver and very soft. I now own several long hair or "fuzzy" hats including a few vintage borsalinos from various periods.

What I really like about them is the extra texture and depth of color. Just like my walls - I liked the colors we chose but "needed" to glaze them and finish one room in strie so that I wouldn't have wide open expanses of "flat" color...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I loved the long hairs too. I had to make space to get more velvet-finish hats. Top-of-the-line Borsalinos (Marque Grand Luxe) hats of the 1930s were often velvet-finished 100% beaver. Truly something to behold.

bk

 

[Brad Bowers]

bk is right, most hats were made from hare fur, either 100%, or a blend that was mostly hare. I know Cavanagh advertised Beaver hats in their highest end hat line in the 1930s, but percentages I don't know. What other furs they might have used I also don't know, but the Salesky Bros., who owned Hat Corp. at the time your hat was made, experimented and innovated with styles a lot to try to boost declining sales, so it's possible it's something more exotic. However, I think that it would be advertised as such on the sweatband.

My take on this hat:

Pre-1972. Until I find definitive evidence to the contrary, I’m sticking with the notion that Cavanagh Edges weren’t produced on Hat Corp. brands after Hat Corp. closed their factories and sold out.

I know it says 'Cavanaugh Edge' but it's looking much more like an overwelt in the current pictures.

bk, here’s my reasoning on why I think it’s a true Cavanagh Edge:

Koracorp revived the Cavart name mid-1973 for use on the “Cavart Edge,” which is not a Cavanagh Edge, and is not the same as the Cavart from the 1930s, which was also a true Cavanagh Edge. This later Cavart is what the factories called a “stuck edge,” meaning an overwelt that was glued and then stitched down during the finishing process, and once the glue was dried, the stitches were removed. It makes for a very convincing Cavanagh Edge imitation. I have a later 1970s Cavanagh with a Cavart Edge, and it had me fooled until I performed a really fine forensic inspection. The stuck edge is part of the reason Cavanagh Edges died out. I think they knew they couldn't get away with calling something a Cavanagh when it really wasn't.

What boggles my mind about these long-hair finish Cavanagh Edges is how they made them. The work involved in making a regular finish Cav Edge is incredible, but to be able to do it while retaining a really long finish is quite impressive. That's another thing I still have yet to discover. It may be something as simple as going back over the edge with carding cloth or similar tool.

BTW, please remember there is no "u" in Cavanagh.

Brad

 

[vonwotan]

Brad,
Thank you for the great information. I have tried to take some close-ups of the edge and the remaining tag under the sweat band. It looks like the edge is still stiched (?) but it was hard to clear away the long hair to get a clear shot.

Thanks also for the note on spelling - I caught this after posting and made the change in the body text (missed the title). I had the impression that this hat was made in the sixties due to the styling, I have to look back to see the sellers comments. Something their gave me that impression as well - but I bid entirely based on the photos with fingers crossed...

Photos to follow shortly.

___

Ugh! These are the best of several goes at a detail photos with the macro focus feature. I need a better way to set up the hat and a little tripod for the camera...

bk is right, most hats were made from hare fur, either 100%, or a blend that was mostly hare. I know Cavanagh advertised Beaver hats in their highest end hat line in the 1930s, but percentages I don't know. What other furs they might have used I also don't know, but the Salesky Bros., who owned Hat Corp. at the time your hat was made, experimented and innovated with styles a lot to try to boost declining sales, so it's possible it's something more exotic. However, I think that it would be advertised as such on the sweatband.

My take on this hat:

Pre-1972. Until I find definitive evidence to the contrary, I’m sticking with the notion that Cavanagh Edges weren’t produced on Hat Corp. brands after Hat Corp. closed their factories and sold out.




bk, here’s my reasoning on why I think it’s a true Cavanagh Edge:

Koracorp revived the Cavart name mid-1973 for use on the “Cavart Edge,” which is not a Cavanagh Edge, and is not the same as the Cavart from the 1930s, which was also a true Cavanagh Edge. This later Cavart is what the factories called a “stuck edge,” meaning an overwelt that was glued and then stitched down during the finishing process, and once the glue was dried, the stitches were removed. It makes for a very convincing Cavanagh Edge imitation. I have a later 1970s Cavanagh with a Cavart Edge, and it had me fooled until I performed a really fine forensic inspection. The stuck edge is part of the reason Cavanagh Edges died out. I think they knew they couldn't get away with calling something a Cavanagh when it really wasn't.

What boggles my mind about these long-hair finish Cavanagh Edges is how they made them. The work involved in making a regular finish Cav Edge is incredible, but to be able to do it while retaining a really long finish is quite impressive. That's another thing I still have yet to discover. It may be something as simple as going back over the edge with carding cloth or similar tool.

BTW, please remember there is no "u" in Cavanagh.

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

I would be interested to know if the edge is stitched. It might not tell us whether or not it's a real Cavanagh Edge or just an overwelt, though, as Cav Edges could be made with the stitches left in, to become part of the felt. It's also possible that on a long-finish hat the stitches could be left in, since they might not be as noticeable.

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

I see the photos are up

Wow, I don't know what to think about that stitching. I guess you'd have to bend the edge back to see if the overwelt lifts a bit from the brim, or if it is felted in. If it's felted, then they left the stitches in, but it sure does look like overwelt stitches. That doesn't explain the sweatband, though.

The liner is stitched in, which is a good sign. I'm of the belief that glued-in liners didn't start showing up until after the Koracorp era began in '72.

Brad

 

[vonwotan]

I've always thought it a shame that we don't have a better source for the meanings of the tags from these now defunct hat makers. We have the model and block that was used to shape the hat - it would be great to use that to identify dates, etc.

For the Cavanagh vs. overwelt - I tried bending back the edge and it does not lift away from the brim. Not sure if that is just due to the very tight small stitching or, whether this is felted in to the brim. There is a thin line that shows under the hair that looks a bit like a standard fur felt but no clear seam. I was also interested to see that under the sewn in liner, the inside of the hat has the same long haired finish - the color is a shade lighter, but the fur is just as fine and soft - perhaps a little "tighter" or matted/flattened.

 

[Dinerman]

Brad, how far back did they make the cavart glued welt edge?
There's no markings as to brim edge type on the sweatband. The hat has a welted edge with no stitching, but the inside edge is squared off like an overwelt, instead of flowing into the brim like a cavanagh.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

PADDY!!!! Let's see that Barbisio overwelt edge. I'd like to have a comparison of the edges of that 30s Barbisio and this very similar (at least in terms of the fur, not the style) hat.

bk

 

[Brad Bowers]

Brad, how far back did they make the cavart glued welt edge?
There's no markings as to brim edge type on the sweatband. The hat has a welted edge with no stitching, but the inside edge is squared off like an overwelt, instead of flowing into the brim like a cavanagh.

Dinerman,

The concept is old, and goes back to at least the 1870s, but in practice, I don't know when it became marketable. I haven't found anything in any Hat Corp. advertising to suggest that it was done, but then I'm pretty sure the mention of glue wouldn't make for big sales.lol However, there are some miscellaneous edge treatments that Cavanagh and Dobbs advertised in the '30s which I'm still trying to track down.

All I know for sure about the "stuck edge" (I love that name!) was that it became a cheap alternative to the Cavanagh Edge in the final years, and added a few more nails in the coffin. I'd say it enjoyed prominence in the late '60s and throughout the '70s, but earlier than that is anybody's guess.

Your description of the edge is dead on. It looks pretty squared off, as if it is one of the most well-defined Cavanagh Edges ever, but the squareness is a dead giveway that it's really an overwelt. How old do you think your hat is?

Look really close along the underside of the brim and see if you can find the remnants of holes where the stitching was removed, as that was the first clue I found on my hat. They'll look fresher than the "ghost stitch" holes left on a real Cavanagh Edge.

Brad

 

[Tango Yankee]

Got my two Cavanaghs out last night and took a look. Very little information to be found on either one. On one it's got Made in Canada embossed on the sweatband. Both were sold by L. Strauss and Co., Inc., in Indianapolis. The brim is rolled up all the way around, but not quite like what I would think of a homburg as being. Unlike yours both of mine have standard grosgrain ribbons.

The brim edging, though, is somewhat different. It's a bound edge, but the edge is bound in the same felt as the hat on both of them.

I took some snapshots, but my card reader on my computer is once again giving me grief. I'll post them when I can get the reader working again.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Brad Bowers]

Tom, that dates your hats to the 1979-1986 timeframe. Levi Strauss owned Koracorp Industries during that period and placed their name on their hat brands' sweatbands.

Yep, interested in pictures!

Brad

 

[PADDY]

Spare me a moment please Baron & I'll get those pics.

PADDY!!!! Let's see that Barbisio overwelt edge. I'd like to have a comparison of the edges of that 30s Barbisio and this very similar (at least in terms of the fur, not the style) hat.

bk

Just literally in from work, so I'll have a dig here and sort some relevant pics out, okay? thanks, Paddy.

Right, job-done!! (I'm just a fuzzy kinda guy!! CIAO!)