Hat making?? Learning Millinery..

[townaj]

I am friends with two other hatters nearby me. We each have totally different markets. One is a western hat maker and he sells a custom western beaver for $1275 and his wait list is lengthy. The other sells the modern BoHo hats, distressed, burnt etc etc....a Canadian Nick Foucette. He too is close to $1200 for beaver. Not sure who wears them but he runs it as a full time business and does very well.

Honestly that’s pretty reasonable considering all the commercial western full beaver hats are $1200. American, Rodeo King, Bailey, Stetson, etc are all at least that much. And they’re not even custom fitted.

Makes me wonder what I should be charging when bodies cost me $4-500 a piece and they’ll presumably be higher quality and better fit than commercial variants.

Herring Custom Hats full beaver westerns start at $975 and go up to almost $2k. He has a coyote/beaver blend he makes that I really want to afford some day.

 

[Rmccamey]

Makes me wonder what I should be charging when bodies cost me $4-500 a piece and they’ll presumably be higher quality and better fit than commercial variants.

And so goes the dance of the free market system! You can charge whatever you want, but if nobody is buying (ie, if you don't know your customer base), you quickly go out of business. Stetson, Borsalino, Mayser, Lock & Co, they all know this. Even "quality" is a term often used, but that term is defined more by the buyer than the seller and is often used as a substitute term for value. The western hat wearers in Texas will rarely pick up a soft, featherweight hat most of us on TFL cherish - or even a cattlemen's creased short-brimmed OR - regardless of felt or construction "quality", because (real or percieved) the lightweight hats won't stand up to the abusive sun, heat, cold, dust and rain of the everyday life of "cowboy hats" nor are they consistent with the look and fashion those buyers want to portray. Basically, you have to know your customers and sell to those customers while at the same time trying to make inroads into new markets. I applaud your drive toward better fit and higher quality, but you are going to have to convince me (the buyer) how those characteristics are an improvement over what I already have for a price I'm willing to pay.

I'm certain that Gannon, Robert (Wolfbrae), Randall Renshaw and Terry Jones could build $2000 hats to rival any hat on the market...and perhaps they should. I'm also certain that each of them know that such hats would be of much less "value" to the rather niche buyers represented on TFL thus requiring them to cater to a different market segment in order to survive as a business.

 

[T Jones]

And so goes the dance of the free market system! You can charge whatever you want, but if nobody is buying (ie, if you don't know your customer base), you quickly go out of business. Stetson, Borsalino, Mayser, Lock & Co, they all know this. Even "quality" is a term often used, but that term is defined more by the buyer than the seller and is often used as a substitute term for value. The western hat wearers in Texas will rarely pick up a soft, featherweight hat most of us on TFL cherish - or even a cattlemen's creased short-brimmed OR - regardless of felt or construction "quality", because (real or percieved) the lightweight hats won't stand up to the abusive sun, heat, cold, dust and rain of the everyday life of "cowboy hats" nor are they consistent with the look and fashion those buyers want to portray. Basically, you have to know your customers and sell to those customers while at the same time trying to make inroads into new markets. I applaud your drive toward better fit and higher quality, but you are going to have to convince me (the buyer) how those characteristics are an improvement over what I already have for a price I'm willing to pay.

I'm certain that Gannon, Robert (Wolfbrae), Randall Renshaw and Terry Jones could build $2000 hats to rival any hat on the market...and perhaps they should. I'm also certain that each of them know that such hats would be of much less "value" to the rather niche buyers represented on TFL thus requiring them to cater to a different market segment in order to survive as a business.

Hey! How come you put my name last! (just kidding).

Anyway, regarding Westerns, (which I love doing), I remember Mark Havens telling me once, (shortly before he unexpectedly passed away), that the 'working cowboys' in his area wanted their hats stiff, the stiffer the better. Those hats had to be able take a lot of abuse. Sure, we want fashion, but we also want practibility. It's like you said, you have to know your customer base and the softer Westerns won't hold up to the abuse of hard work like a stiff thicker felted Western. I have an old Resistol magazine around here someplace where they advertised their hats as the 'Working Cowboy's' hat. Nothing wrong at all with softer Westerns. Everyone has their own preference, and some like both.. Just my take on the Western hats.

 

[belfastboy]

Hey! How come you put my name last! (just kidding).

Anyway, regarding Westerns, (which I love doing), I remember Mark Havens telling me once, (shortly before he unexpectedly passed away), that the 'working cowboys' in his area wanted their hats stiff, the stiffer the better. Those hats had to be able take a lot of abuse. Sure, we want fashion, but we also want practibility. It's like you said, you have to know your customer base and the softer Westerns won't hold up to the abuse of hard work like a stiff thicker felted Western. I have an old Resistol magazine around here someplace where they advertised their hats as the 'Working Cowboy's' hat. Nothing wrong at all with softer Westerns. Everyone has their own preference, and some like both.. Just my take on the Western hats.

He listed us alphabetically!

 

[belfastboy]

Hey! How come you put my name last! (just kidding).

Anyway, regarding Westerns, (which I love doing), I remember Mark Havens telling me once, (shortly before he unexpectedly passed away), that the 'working cowboys' in his area wanted their hats stiff, the stiffer the better. Those hats had to be able take a lot of abuse. Sure, we want fashion, but we also want practibility. It's like you said, you have to know your customer base and the softer Westerns won't hold up to the abuse of hard work like a stiff thicker felted Western. I have an old Resistol magazine around here someplace where they advertised their hats as the 'Working Cowboy's' hat. Nothing wrong at all with softer Westerns. Everyone has their own preference, and some like both.. Just my take on the Western hats.

I have one of Mark's hats, a western weight beaver. Love the hat. Was planning or ordering another and then he passed.

 

[townaj]

And so goes the dance of the free market system! You can charge whatever you want, but if nobody is buying (ie, if you don't know your customer base), you quickly go out of business. Stetson, Borsalino, Mayser, Lock & Co, they all know this. Even "quality" is a term often used, but that term is defined more by the buyer than the seller and is often used as a substitute term for value. The western hat wearers in Texas will rarely pick up a soft, featherweight hat most of us on TFL cherish - or even a cattlemen's creased short-brimmed OR - regardless of felt or construction "quality", because (real or percieved) the lightweight hats won't stand up to the abusive sun, heat, cold, dust and rain of the everyday life of "cowboy hats" nor are they consistent with the look and fashion those buyers want to portray. Basically, you have to know your customers and sell to those customers while at the same time trying to make inroads into new markets. I applaud your drive toward better fit and higher quality, but you are going to have to convince me (the buyer) how those characteristics are an improvement over what I already have for a price I'm willing to pay.

I'm certain that Gannon, Robert (Wolfbrae), Randall Renshaw and Terry Jones could build $2000 hats to rival any hat on the market...and perhaps they should. I'm also certain that each of them know that such hats would be of much less "value" to the rather niche buyers represented on TFL thus requiring them to cater to a different market segment in order to survive as a business.

My market consists of the same people, which is nice as I grew up in Texas and ranching so I'm familiar with them. They don't want fedoras or soft bodied hats, they want a working quality western hat that they can wear on the range 10 months a year or even all year that is stiff and repellant enough to stand up to our rain and snow but that wears comfortable. I've been developing a "conformateur" that I can 3d print to help achieve the comfort part of the equation. My plan is to get my own hat finished and then abuse it to see how it holds up before offering any to customers. I even have a certain customer 4 hours away that has had me repair three of his $1500 "custom" Serratelli's because he's so hard on them, so I may even gift him a hat and see what he thinks of it.

The fact that commercial variants are priced so high plays into my thoughts on potential pricing. I don't know if it makes more sense as a hat shop to sell more of those or more of the full customs that I'll end up making. Margins would be about the same if I matched their price. However I can achieve a better fit than the commercial, and the bodies on theirs are usually closer to a dress weight than a western weight so mine would be heartier.

TFL is a great learning tool and so far a very welcoming and gracious community. My hats won't be what most of the people here will want, as you said, but its use as a sounding board is invaluable and I appreciate everyones insight and input. I have the advantage of owning a hat shop so custom hats will not be my main income stream. I don't make any right now and we've been running fine for 2 years. But I've grown bored of repairs, shaping, cleaning, and sales. This was the next logical step and one that people have been asking for since we opened so I'd like to get it figured out as much as I can.

 

[belfastboy]

And so goes the dance of the free market system! You can charge whatever you want, but if nobody is buying (ie, if you don't know your customer base), you quickly go out of business. Stetson, Borsalino, Mayser, Lock & Co, they all know this. Even "quality" is a term often used, but that term is defined more by the buyer than the seller and is often used as a substitute term for value. The western hat wearers in Texas will rarely pick up a soft, featherweight hat most of us on TFL cherish - or even a cattlemen's creased short-brimmed OR - regardless of felt or construction "quality", because (real or percieved) the lightweight hats won't stand up to the abusive sun, heat, cold, dust and rain of the everyday life of "cowboy hats" nor are they consistent with the look and fashion those buyers want to portray. Basically, you have to know your customers and sell to those customers while at the same time trying to make inroads into new markets. I applaud your drive toward better fit and higher quality, but you are going to have to convince me (the buyer) how those characteristics are an improvement over what I already have for a price I'm willing to pay.

I'm certain that Gannon, Robert (Wolfbrae), Randall Renshaw and Terry Jones could build $2000 hats to rival any hat on the market...and perhaps they should. I'm also certain that each of them know that such hats would be of much less "value" to the rather niche buyers represented on TFL thus requiring them to cater to a different market segment in order to survive as a business.

My marketing plan from the beginning was to target first time buyers into the custom world passing on my low overhead/lower price to them My business is about 50/50 online and in person. Most of the in person is to men that this is their first foray into custom hats or even a 'good' hat as we have no hat shops in the metro area at all. I love my market niche and it is so much fun interacting with the clients and playing the role of 'hat educator'. It probably would not sell well but want to have biz cards naming me a "Hat Evangelist"

 

[Darrell2688]

I don't have the money to buy beaver fur felts to work with, it would be nice to have a beaver hat body to work with just for the experience.

To figure out the selling price, if I was able to make Western hats of beaver that were custom made to fit the customer and my local competition was making hats for $1275.00 with a long wait list and the hats were not a custom fit, I would make a hat as a gift with a custom fit, and let him be a walking advertisement, and after my customer base increased I would adjust my selling price accordingly, sell below local competition, you can always raise your selling price as business increases.

You are paying $500.00 for a beaver fur felt hat body blank, then making a custom fit hat. What is the total cost of making the hat? Are you making band blocks for each customer to make a custom fit hat? One thing for sure you will have to charge enough to get back your investment in the hat plus your time making the hat, and if you can sell lower than your local competition, your customer base will increase and you will do better than your competition, if you are offering something that they don't.

I made a wooden band block that is close to my head shape and my hats fit so much better, that surprised me.

Just my thoughts or my 2 cents worth.

 

[T Jones]

He listed us alphabetically!

I flunked ABCs in the Third grade. Aside from that, Third grade was the best five years of my life.

 

[T Jones]

I have one of Mark's hats, a western weight beaver. Love the hat. Was planning or ordering another and then he passed.

I had a lot of good phone conversations with Mark. He was a friend. It was a real shock when he passed.

 

[belfastboy]

My market consists of the same people, which is nice as I grew up in Texas and ranching so I'm familiar with them. They don't want fedoras or soft bodied hats, they want a working quality western hat that they can wear on the range 10 months a year or even all year that is stiff and repellant enough to stand up to our rain and snow but that wears comfortable. I've been developing a "conformateur" that I can 3d print to help achieve the comfort part of the equation. My plan is to get my own hat finished and then abuse it to see how it holds up before offering any to customers. I even have a certain customer 4 hours away that has had me repair three of his $1500 "custom" Serratelli's because he's so hard on them, so I may even gift him a hat and see what he thinks of it.

The fact that commercial variants are priced so high plays into my thoughts on potential pricing. I don't know if it makes more sense as a hat shop to sell more of those or more of the full customs that I'll end up making. Margins would be about the same if I matched their price. However I can achieve a better fit than the commercial, and the bodies on theirs are usually closer to a dress weight than a western weight so mine would be heartier.

TFL is a great learning tool and so far a very welcoming and gracious community. My hats won't be what most of the people here will want, as you said, but its use as a sounding board is invaluable and I appreciate everyones insight and input. I have the advantage of owning a hat shop so custom hats will not be my main income stream. I don't make any right now and we've been running fine for 2 years. But I've grown bored of repairs, shaping, cleaning, and sales. This was the next logical step and one that people have been asking for since we opened so I'd like to get it figured out as much as I can.

The local custom hatter that I know has a great many of the inexpensive conformateurs that he sends out of his clients. They use the conformateur and send it back to him so he has the pattern. He tried two of the RA 3D printed ones and interestingly he found that in the intense summer heat in Texas and Arizona the 3D printed ones deformed. His earlier plastic ones, cheaper than 3D held up fine. My guy here is using a different material with a much higher heat resistance to the PLA of most 3D printed products. Worth considering as you make your own.

 

[belfastboy]

I flunked ABCs in the Third grade. Aside from that, Third grade was the best five years of my life.

I had Ms Cassidy in 3rd grade. She liked me so I worked hard to impress her......women have that effect!

 

[belfastboy]

Honestly that’s pretty reasonable considering all the commercial western full beaver hats are $1200. American, Rodeo King, Bailey, Stetson, etc are all at least that much. And they’re not even custom fitted.

Makes me wonder what I should be charging when bodies cost me $4-500 a piece and they’ll presumably be higher quality and better fit than commercial variants.

Herring Custom Hats full beaver westerns start at $975 and go up to almost $2k. He has a coyote/beaver blend he makes that I really want to afford some day.

My friend selling custom fit westerns at $1275 produces about 12 hats a month. That is about his max capacity. But not a bad monthly gross. He is now acquiring machinery to build in efficiencies to up his production numbers. He added straws this year but had to make them in the evenings/weekends as his standard work day is filled with felt work.

 

[T Jones]

I had Ms Cassidy in 3rd grade. She liked me so I worked hard to impress her......women have that effect!

I had Miss Cotrell in the 3rd grade. She never seemed too impressed with me even though I was the only kid in class who shaved and had a driver's license.

 

[belfastboy]

I don't have the money to buy beaver fur felts to work with, it would be nice to have a beaver hat body to work with just for the experience. To figure out the selling price, if I was making Western hats that were custom made to fit the customer and my local competition was making hats for $1275.00 with a long wait list and the hats were not a custom fit, you could make a hat as a gift with the custome fit, and let him be your walking advertisement, and adjust your selling price accordingly, sell below your local competition, you can always raise your selling price as business increases. You are paying $500.00 for a beaver fur felt hat body blank, then making a custom fit hat. What is the total cost of making the hat? Are you making band blocks for each customer to make a custom fit hat? One thing for sure you will have to charge enough to get back your investment in the hat plus your time making the hat, and if you can sell lower than your local competition, your customer base will increase and you will do better than your competition, you are offering something that they don't, I made a wooden band block that is close to my head shape and my hats fit so much better, surprised me. Just my thoughts or is that my 2 cents worth.

It is important to come to terms with your business model. What type of hatter do you want to be? Who is your market? If you plan to be a custom hatter then it does not matter so what your costs are but what is your selling price? Are you a custom hatter or a hat maker that makes hats on spec and then sells them online? If the latter, take your costs and add on the markup that fits for you.

 

[townaj]

My friend selling custom fit westerns at $1275 produces about 12 hats a month. That is about his max capacity. But not a bad monthly gross. He is now acquiring machinery to build in efficiencies to up his production numbers. He added straws this year but had to make them in the evenings/weekends as his standard work day is filled with felt work.

Thats a great output. If I ever get to making that many I'll be surprised. The closest place to me used to be called Silver Tip Hat Co, the owner passed away a few years back and someone else took it over. I believe her hats start at $1100 from what I've heard.

As far as my conformateur device, I'm definitely not using PLA like is common on most of the Etsy products. It takes shockingly little heat to warp it, I learned that when I started printing a year ago. I'm using Nylon right now for the prototype and will likely switch to ASA for the ones I end up shipping out if I need to do that at some point.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

My market consists of the same people, which is nice as I grew up in Texas and ranching so I'm familiar with them. They don't want fedoras or soft bodied hats, they want a working quality western hat that they can wear on the range 10 months a year or even all year that is stiff and repellant enough to stand up to our rain and snow but that wears comfortable. I've been developing a "conformateur" that I can 3d print to help achieve the comfort part of the equation. My plan is to get my own hat finished and then abuse it to see how it holds up before offering any to customers. I even have a certain customer 4 hours away that has had me repair three of his $1500 "custom" Serratelli's because he's so hard on them, so I may even gift him a hat and see what he thinks of it.

The fact that commercial variants are priced so high plays into my thoughts on potential pricing. I don't know if it makes more sense as a hat shop to sell more of those or more of the full customs that I'll end up making. Margins would be about the same if I matched their price. However I can achieve a better fit than the commercial, and the bodies on theirs are usually closer to a dress weight than a western weight so mine would be heartier.

TFL is a great learning tool and so far a very welcoming and gracious community. My hats won't be what most of the people here will want, as you said, but its use as a sounding board is invaluable and I appreciate everyones insight and input. I have the advantage of owning a hat shop so custom hats will not be my main income stream. I don't make any right now and we've been running fine for 2 years. But I've grown bored of repairs, shaping, cleaning, and sales. This was the next logical step and one that people have been asking for since we opened so I'd like to get it figured out as much as I can.

I find it interesting that 80+ years ago the cowboys spent more of their hours outdoors and were exposed to harsher conditions, and yet the felt of the era was thinner and much less stiff that modern western felt. It has more to do with style and changing preferences than usefulness or longevity. Personally, there’s room
In my hat collection for modern firm/stiff western hats, vintage moldable hats, and customs that run the gamut.

I’d put a modern pure beaver firm cowboy hat from Northwest at $600 up against those costing more than twice as much made by most of the big names in custom cowboy hats that have passed through my hands.

 

[belfastboy]

I find it interesting that 80+ years ago the cowboys spent more of their hours outdoors and were exposed to harsher conditions, and yet the felt of the era was thinner and much less stiff that modern western felt. It has more to do with style and changing preferences than usefulness or longevity. Personally, there’s room
In my hat collection for modern firm/stiff western hats, vintage moldable hats, and customs that run the gamut.

I’d put a modern pure beaver firm cowboy hat from Northwest at $600 up against those costing more than twice as much made by most of the big names in custom cowboy hats that have passed through my hands.

My western weight beaver felts from Northwest are brilliant hats. Mine is a few years old now....got lucky bought it when it was only about $350

 

[belfastboy]

I am now testing the 3D printed flange ...made by a local printer guy. It looks great. Is made from PETG which has a much higher heat resistance than the common PLA. It is a much better material for hatters than the cheap PLA that most printers sell.

As well my guy puts on a layer of resin to smooth out the ridges inherent to the printing process. I just gave him an order for 7 of them. His price should be half that of RA and other printers. He has the patterns for #51 & #52 blocks as well. For the blocks he will use ABS which has even higher heat resistance than the PETG.
PLA is commonly used as it is cheap and most consumer grade printers handle it well. Whereas with PETG et al it takes a much higher grade and much more expensive printer to work with.
If interested PM me your contact info. I will be meeting with him in the next week or so. I am trying to get him to print a conformateur and other items. He also can print the one piece brim curlers in 3/8" up to 3/4"

 

[Rmccamey]

My accounting friends tell me reducing fixed costs is a key ingredient to profits and staying in business.

It is important to come to terms with your business model. What type of hatter do you want to be? Who is your market? If you plan to be a custom hatter then it does not matter so what your costs are but what is your selling price? Are you a custom hatter or a hat maker that makes hats on spec and then sells them online? If the latter, take your costs and add on the markup that fits for you.