Hand gun ownership in the U.S.

[Lincsong]

They have a yearly machine gun shoot somewhere here in KY, where folks come from all around and bring their mg's from Skorpions to vehicle mounted Gatling guns (which are actually not machine guns, by the way).

Bullitt County, KY is where all the action takes place. They'll put an old stove in the middle of a field and a couple hundred people will unload into it.lol I saw on the news once where an 8 month pregnant woman was shooting a Gatling gun.lol

 

[MrNewportCustom]

Lee, Blue Ice and ThermaCare packs are for temperature-control, not body armor. Facing that, I'd want a full-body Nomex or asbestos suit like pit-stop firefighters wear on race-day...

Or a Bradley IFV, then I'd show you a real 25mm incendiary...

Still might hang ya with the jury though... and you can bet you'd be prosecuted for "carrying a gun without permission-slip", they've even busted people for squirtguns and airsoft!

DB, I was refering to a post of yours from another thread when I mentioned the Blue Ice. And don't worry, I have no intention of carrying it anywhere concealed or loaded. I'm fortunate to have a friend who does collect guns, and if I have any questions about related laws, I ask him. And a lot of things are just common sense. Thank you.

That's uncommon for flares - sure it's not 26.5mm?

25mm is stamped on the top. As is, 1" CON. I'm just beginning to learn about these, so I'm ready for any information I get.


Lee

 

[Diamondback]

DB, I was refering to a post of yours from another thread when I mentioned the Blue Ice. And don't worry, I have no intention of carrying it anywhere concealed or loaded. I'm fortunate to have a friend who does collect guns, and if I have any questions about related laws, I ask him. And a lot of things are just common sense. Thank you.

Apologies, Lee, I tend to lag a little on "getting the joke". In retrospect, a good one though... lol

Good call with your friend--I'm not looking forward to the defensive complications of being in LA this summer...

For you Appalachian would be full-auto shooters, there's always the twice-a-year Knob Creek shoot, too.

 

[MrNewportCustom]

Apologies, Lee, I tend to lag a little on "getting the joke". In retrospect, a good one though... lol

Good call with your friend--I'm not looking forward to the defensive complications of being in LA this summer...

For you Appalachian would be full-auto shooters, there's always the twice-a-year Knob Creek shoot, too.

No appologies needed. I do too, sometimes. Thank you.

You're going to be in LA? (Los Angeles or Louisiana? ) What, pray-tell, for? If it's for our irregularly scheduled earthquakes, we are due for one soon. So hurry!

As far as defensive complications; don't wear red or blue, shorts that are below the knees, and don't upset the paparrazzi - they're starting to fight back.


Lee
__________________________

Welcome to the Land of Some Assembly Required.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

If one wanted to aquire an M1911, what would be the best source? Local gun show, gun shop? And I know others made the 1911 besides Colt, are any of them worth a flip?

 

[Diamondback]

If one wanted to aquire an M1911, what would be the best source? Local gun show, gun shop? And I know others made the 1911 besides Colt, are any of them worth a flip?

Speaking as a 1911ista, best source and best makers are both highly subjective. Nobody makes 'em precisely as they did in WWI or WWII, or even in the '50s. (This is part of why I plan to make my own, so I know they're done right.)

Sorry about the non-answer, but there are as many different opinions as 1911 owners.

 

[carebear]

1911 has several options. Any of the major major manufacturers will offer a quality product. Colt, Springfield Armory, Kimber, Rock River. Heck, Smith & Wesson and Taurus have 1911 copies available.

Pretty much any major manufacturer will have a 1911 that will work just fine out of the box.

 

[carebear]

1. Armed, whether openly or not. Is this truly a desired state? Yes, I suppose it may deter some criminals; others may just shoot and then rob you. As I think I mentioned earlier, it would be an interesting social experiment to have everyone armed. Would there be fewer or more shooting deaths (both accidentaly and deliberate?) I tend to think more-people do awfully stupid things when they're angry or had a few drinks.

But actual experience in states that allow both open and concealed carry without a permit show this to be a totally false supposition.

2. Perhaps, but I think the Founding Fathers would have preferred the US to have grown into a country where the citizens did not feel a need to carry a weapon at all times, such as walking down the streets of their city.

There is nothing in their actual writings that suggests the idea that "every man be armed" was any problem at all. In fact, quite the opposite is the case.

3. No, it's not a moot point. Although, in theory, anyone could be carrying, the reality is that very few people actually do--and everyone knows that. Personally, I'd be a lot more worried about my own safety if everyone carried.

Why? There is no evidence. None that suggests that law-abiding people carrying arms causes any problem whatsoever.

It would be different if I believed that everyone would act responsibly, get training, practice, give some actual thought to the responsibility of owning a firearm, etc. Unfortunately, I can sit on my front porch and watch people go by that I'd feel fairly safe assuming would do none of those things.

And you can sit on your front porch being exactly wrong. There is no evidence that allowing the general public to carry firearms unlicensed or licensed will increase crime or accidents one whit. You are welcome to try to actually find data to support your position, but you won't.

In the end, despite all the discussion, I don't think anyone on the "pro-gun" side will admit that maybe, just maybe, there are more-or-less law-abiding citizens out there that probably should not have a gun available at all times while I am not going to come to the conclusion that having everyone venture out in public heavily armed would be a good thing.

Who are you to judge who should have a firearm or not? Again (and again and again) there is no evidence that allowing any person who is lawfully allowed to own a firearm to carry that firearm increases accidents or crimes with firearms. If you can find any evidence besides your opinion, cite it.

I still think that as far as violent criminals go, we're not going to solve that problem just by building more jails. There are underlying social and cultural issues that need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed long-term. That won't happen as long as people put down helping our fellow man as being something unworthy of doing. In the meantime, it's not just for petite women that the gun is the great equalizer--it's the great equalizer for the small, skinny kid who decides they haven't got anything to lose and gives holding someone up a go.

Regards,
Tom

True, sorta, but should the petite woman or small man or disabled individual suffer because some kid somewhere may violate a series of laws? Why penalize the absolutely innocent based on what some nut somewhere might do?

What's more important, the rights of the law-abiding or the off chance that some psycho may choose to violate the law?

 

[John in Covina]

That kid is a ticking timebomb in any case. He's mad, and when you're that angry there's a whole lot of ways to take it out on the world. You know what the rage is around here? Dousing your girlfriend or the house that she's in with gasoline and setting her afire. Often there's already a restraining order in place, but those things...don't do a whole lot.

Maybe we need gas control?

-Viola

**************
The real control is called "Self Control"
and it comes from the realiztion that being mad, angry or sad is not reason enough to hurt others. The idea that I can consider that my feelings allow me to horribly effect or end the lives of others is ludicris, yet many people will act on these feelings. Why? Have they never learned what their responsibilty and rights are in regards to other people, what is the right way to act towards others? Or is it that they were taught some or how wired to believe that they are the center of the universe, all things revolve around them and it is their wants and needs that are to be satisfied above all things. Another trigger is that they dispare so greatly that their actions are ones of great despiration as though they felt cornered or trapped with out any other way out.

The reasons have a non-normal concept of relationship, and self importance or psycotic reasoning. Rage and reason rarely go hand in hand.

 

[John in Covina]

There are parts of this country where people walk around armed and these are the places with less crime, less murders and NO, shoot 'em ups like we see in cartoons. This theory that all of a sudden we're going to have Dodge City by allowing people to carry concealed weapons is patently false and borderline hallucinogenic.

.

**********
Exactly. In each state that has gone to the "Shall Issue" concealed carry permits, which clears many restrictions away from the carry permit to allow more people that option, crime in those states goes down and the running gun battles do not occur as some would suppose.

When you have that a society can be openly armed, it has a great reducing affect on stuppid actions and criminal attempts. The safest place in the world was being at a gun show surrounded by all those "gun nuts" that were armed,
because "an armed society is a polite society" and that is a fact, I have seen it in action.

 

[Harp]

I still think that as far as violent criminals go, we're not going to solve that problem just by building more jails. There are underlying social and cultural issues that need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed long-term. That won't happen as long as people put down helping our fellow man as being something unworthy of doing.
Regards,
Tom

The courts and police/social authorities are overburdened; further prison
construct and duration of sentence hold would help ease this. As to the
"underlying" societal/cultural issues, and how said should be addressed
is debatable; however, much of the problem is beyond government address
and simply throwing a dollar down simply does not offer practical solution.
And this nation is most generous; arguably the most munificent, yet
in a morally relativist culture the necessary innate correction remains
elusive. Which makes the right to bear arms all the more necessary,
without further governmental trespass upon individual right.

 

[J.S.Udontknowme]

Thanks for posting and keeping ON TOPIC. These are some mightly fine looking revolvers.

I probably would have gotten way fftopic: and too political if I had responded to post #388. Anyway, carebear, Fatdutchman, Undertow, Twitch and warbird expressed my feelings on this subject far better than I could have.

 

[Story]

If one wanted to aquire an M1911, what would be the best source? Local gun show, gun shop? And I know others made the 1911 besides Colt, are any of them worth a flip?

Register here and ask questions, they'll help you find what you want.
http://forums.1911forum.com/

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Register here and ask questions, they'll help you find what you want.
http://forums.1911forum.com/

Great, thanks! I've always wanted one of my own since it was my issued sidearm as a tanker. This was back when we still wore steel pots and used M60A3s.

 

[Twitch]

While it seems this topic has run off into many though-provoking directions I basically look at firarms ownership as I do ownership of anything. Those who desire to own firearms should do so and those who do not, should not. It's as simple as that. If you don't like or are afraid of firearms you shouldn't be around them. If you are compitent and confident with them you should be.

I find it curious that firearms owners never ever attempt to force non-owners to purchase them while the reverse is almost always true. From derogatory remarks to some organized group bent on confiscation the antis are pro active while the owners are retiring, laid back and generally easy going never putting any huge important emphasis on their owning of firearms.

The concept of registration and licensing is only going to keep the good guys good anyway. When I was in outside sales over the years I can't count the number of times people on the street approached me offering to sell me a gun or dope. Remember where ther's dope there's a gun to be bought too. And I was driving company cars that looked like cop sedans and wearing a suit jacket and tie looking like a cop! Still people wanted to sell me machine pistols and other firearms!

Point is these were stolen weapons, the same ones the bad guys buy in order to do crimes. They don't pass background checks and wait 5 days.

Being at odds with gun owners is wasted energy since lawful gun owners are not the problem, criminals are. Preaching to the choir is useless. Firearms owners hunt and punch holes in paper targets for fun and some never shoot and only collect. The rational that guns are a causitive to crime is as wrong as saying SUVs in careless drivers' hands are more deadly that Hondas so we should outlaw and confiscate all SUVs!

I have always used an example that illustrates the banality of loading legal owners with a guilt trip of having guns. Take me to any city of say, 80,000 inhabitants or more. Immediately I will find certain questionable areas of that city followed by asking certain people where I can find some drugs. With drugs are stolen guns. In 2 hours of entering a strange city I can obtain a gun.

It simply returns to people attempting to force their wills, values and lifestyles on others while making judgemental decisions on people that don't conform to their perceived image. If you want to ski by all means purchase the equipment, get lessons and go to the mountains. But please don't tell me I should learn to ski instead of going to the pistol range. If you choose to become a gun owner and go to a range the same applies- purchase the equipment and get lessons. But most of all, shut the hell up and quit projecting your values on others. You aren't going to change anyone's point of view.

Thankfully here at the Lounge people actually discuss topics instead of argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[Tango Yankee]

But actual experience in states that allow both open and concealed carry without a permit show this to be a totally false supposition.

Link to government data proving this?

People sometimes do stupid things. Put a gun on everyone and the incidence of people doing stupid things with guns will rise, simply because the opportunity is there.

And John, in a perfect world everyone would have self-control. In the real world, they do not. There are plenty of stories in the news to prove that. Southern California (where I'm from, BTW-South Gate, to be exact) became quite the joke a few years back due to the road-rage shootings.

Lincsong, I never said that we'd have Dodge City--but your response is a typical one. Do you believe that any idea that you don't agree with is borderline hallucinogenic?

There is nothing in their actual writings that suggests the idea that "every man be armed" was any problem at all. In fact, quite the opposite is the case.

Actually, my thought is that they would have hoped that we as a nation would have evolved past the point where guns were still needed for self-protection.

Why? There is no evidence. None that suggests that law-abiding people carrying arms causes any problem whatsoever.

Is that based upon the fact that the moment someone pulls out a weapon in anger and uses it they're no longer a law-abiding citizen? Or that a person carrying a concealed weapon without a permit (in states where that is required) is not law-abiding?

And you can sit on your front porch being exactly wrong. There is no evidence that allowing the general public to carry firearms unlicensed or licensed will increase crime or accidents one whit. You are welcome to try to actually find data to support your position, but you won't.

So far as I know, the simple act of purchasing a firearm does not automatically confer upon one a strong sense of responsibility and a keen concern for safety. I have no reason whatsoever to think that those I see illegally riding 4-wheelers at highway speeds on a state highway, sometimes at night, sometimes while pulling wheelies, sometimes while carrying passengers on single-seaters, and sometimes having as passengers children or toddlers, will suddenly develop a sense of concern regarding the safety of themselves or those around them simply by strapping a gun to thier belt.

Who are you to judge who should have a firearm or not? Again (and again and again) there is no evidence that allowing any person who is lawfully allowed to own a firearm to carry that firearm increases accidents or crimes with firearms. If you can find any evidence besides your opinion, cite it.

Have you never met anyone you thought might not be the best person to be carrying a gun, or driving a car? Unfortunately, not everyone has a sense of personal responsibility or concern for safety. There is, of course, no way to separate them from those who do until they prove otherwise.

True, sorta, but should the petite woman or small man or disabled individual suffer because some kid somewhere may violate a series of laws? Why penalize the absolutely innocent based on what some nut somewhere might do?

What's more important, the rights of the law-abiding or the off chance that some psycho may choose to violate the law?

I never suggested penalizing anyone. I merely pointed out that a gun is a great equalizer no matter who is holding it.

The only reason for someone to carry a weapon with them at all times in this day and age is for self-defense, due to fear or expectation of violent crime against them.

The general consensus among gun owners here seems to be that the desired response to dealing with the issue of violent crime would be for everyone to be carrying a gun. Of course, from what I've read online one side effect of that (assuming it is effective) may be as violent crime drops, non-violent crime rises.

Yes, the anti-gun crowd likes to point out that for the most part the guns in the hands of criminals actually come from law-abiding citizens--they get stolen and passed on. This is one of their reasons for banning handguns. It does seem to be a bit of a circle--someone buys a gun for self-defense, it gets stolen, the fear heightens and they go out and get another one. Banning the sale of handguns will not effectively diminish the supply--criminals do not buy them, they steal them--and there are lots of guns out there.

My position is that for a truly safe and civilized society we need to address the underlying issues that have nothing to do with gun ownership. As I stated before, such a course would not offer a quick-fix, it would take generations to accomplish. Unfortunately, we also live in a society where a large part of the population's attitude is "screw 'em, let them find their own way out of the ghetto." A rather shortsighted view, to be sure.

As for all these claims that wherever people walk around armed are the places with less crime (and are you talking violent crime, or all crime?) I have yet to see anyone post links to sites with valid statistics to bear that out. I'm not saying it's not possible, but since Carebear is now demanding citations from me (despite the fact that I gave only my opinions and did not make any claims to stats or studies) I think it's only fair to ask for them in return since you are making claims of statistics supporting your statements. Official government stats are preferable as being less likely to be skewed.

As for the "an armed society is a polite society" claim: that may be true, but it would be a false politeness. It is also based on the idea that "I'd better not piss this guy off because he may not have the self control to not draw his weapon" which kind of goes against the self-control angle.

I'd rather live in a civilized society that did not feel the need to be armed. I'll never see it, of course--as I said, the problems, if we ever start to address them, will not be fixed overnight. The true tragedy, of course, is that we probably won't bother.


Regards,
Tom

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Great, thanks! I've always wanted one of my own since it was my issued sidearm as a tanker. This was back when we still wore steel pots and used M60A3s.

Cool! Did you get to keep that? Does it fit in your garage? lol

 

[J. M. Stovall]

I just had to cut a hole in the garage door for the main gun .

 

[Phil]

So, you have a tank in you garage...and that barrel...it just pokes out?
That's the coolest thing ever!
Trick or treat kids, look in the hole of mystery...

 

[HoosierDaddy]

If one wanted to aquire an M1911, what would be the best source? Local gun show, gun shop? And I know others made the 1911 besides Colt, are any of them worth a flip?

Hi J.M.Stovall
Yes there are several 1911 style handguns that are more than worth a flip! I've carried a .45 acp for years. On the range...I tend to shoot well with one. The sound and recoil of a .45 seems unique. More of a boom rather than sharper crack. More push than sharp recoil...or perhaps only personal perceptions of my caliber of choice. The "Gun List" is a popular newspaperlike catalog source of dealer and many personal sellers. Probably can be found on the web for subscription. Next would be local gun shows. Most of my gun collection has been accumilated those two ways. Either way..you meet others with advice. Gun shops are often retail or near retail..but not always.
In the past ..I collected Colt 1911 of all varieties and sizes. Colt is a fine semi auto handgun. Especially some older models..or even just slightly slicked-out newer ones. However...I tried out my friend's ParaOrdnance P-12 at the range years ago. A small 12 shot 1911 style handgun. Wider grip to hold more rounds. At 25 yards I put all twelve rounds in an area the size of a dime (one kicker)....consistently. Needless to say..I talked him into selling it to me. It's in my pics(two toned,engraved slide). After that..I purchased all ParaOrdnance's other models...had the throats polished...and sold my Colt 1911s..since I only keep what I enjoy carrying or shooting very well.
The ParaOrdnance is practically the same idea as the 1911 colt...but ..instead of 7-8 shells...they hold...12-13 and up..depending on the size of gun.
I've owned Colts..Kimbers...S&W...and customs. The Canadian made Ps style is my fav. Polished and smoothed..it can be a dependable tack driver hurling alot of stopping power.
HD