Hand gun ownership in the U.S.

[Fatdutchman]

My 70's style Springfield Armory .45 auto. The 1911 is just not as amenable to my hand as revolvers are.

I've never cared for the slanted grip grooves on the slide, but just about everything has them now.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Hi J.M.Stovall
Yes there are several 1911 style handguns that are more than worth a flip! I've carried a .45 acp for years. On the range...I tend to shoot well with one. The sound and recoil of a .45 seems unique. More of a boom rather than sharper crack. More push than sharp recoil...or perhaps only personal perceptions of my caliber of choice. The "Gun List" is a popular newspaperlike catalog source of dealer and many personal sellers. Probably can be found on the web for subscription. Next would be local gun shows. Most of my gun collection has been accumilated those two ways. Either way..you meet others with advice. Gun shops are often retail or near retail..but not always.
In the past ..I collected Colt 1911 of all varieties and sizes. Colt is a fine semi auto handgun. Especially some older models..or even just slightly slicked-out newer ones. However...I tried out my friend's ParaOrdnance P-12 at the range years ago. A small 12 shot 1911 style handgun. Wider grip to hold more rounds. At 25 yards I put all twelve rounds in an area the size of a dime (one kicker)....consistently. Needless to say..I talked him into selling it to me. It's in my pics(two toned,engraved slide). After that..I purchased all ParaOrdnance's other models...had the throats polished...and sold my Colt 1911s..since I only keep what I enjoy carrying or shooting very well.
The ParaOrdnance is practically the same idea as the 1911 colt...but ..instead of 7-8 shells...they hold...12-13 and up..depending on the size of gun.
I've owned Colts..Kimbers...S&W...and customs. The Canadian made Ps style is my fav. Polished and smoothed..it can be a dependable tack driver hurling alot of stopping power.
HD

Thanks for all the great info HD! There's a big gun show in a couple of weeks-I think I'll go check things out.

 

[carebear]

Tango,

I'm working on pulling together the actual state data sets for you.

The reason I asked you to provide citations to support your opinions was not to be confrontational. It is due to the very nature of our political system.

When you have a pre-existing right, it is not up to those who would retain the right to justify why they should be able to.

It falls on those who would restrict the right to prove why it should be restricted. If they have only opinion, and no documented evidence that restricting a freedom serves a compelling public need, then the restriction can not legally (or ethically) be emplaced.

Note I don't claim concealed carry laws lower crime rates. As you note, the best recent studies show very little effect except perhaps changing crime types from violent to non-violent (which I would consider a good thing on the whole).

However, the fact that concealed carry may not provide a general deterrant effect is meaningless from a policy perspective. The only justification to restrict carry would be if it increased violent crime, which no study suggests it does.

If there is no significant increase in violence due to concealed carry, there is no reason to prevent people from doing it.

Again, the founding principle of our nation is that we allow people their freedoms until they individually prove they cannot handle them. Thus the innocent are not penalized due to the actions of a very few guilty.

 

[Harp]

The Federalist Papers serve excellent recourse to original intent;
most notably Hamilton's remarks in #28 & 29; also Madison's #46 essay,
as to the advantage and rights of armed citizenry.

 

[Story]

Great, thanks! I've always wanted one of my own since it was my issued sidearm as a tanker. This was back when we still wore steel pots and used M60A3s.

Yeah, and you can get one that rattles far less than the ones they handed us 19Es.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Yeah, and you can get one that rattles far less than the ones they handed us 19Es.

Wow, 19Echo, hadn't heard that in a while.

 

[Diamondback]

You're going to be in LA? (Los Angeles or Louisiana? ) What, pray-tell, for? If it's for our irregularly scheduled earthquakes, we are due for one soon. So hurry!

As far as defensive complications; don't wear red or blue, shorts that are below the knees, and don't upset the paparrazzi - they're starting to fight back.
...
Welcome to the Land of Some Assembly Required.

fftopic: Lee, I'm headin' down your way to chaperone my grandmother around Disneyland one last time, hit Back to the Future: the Ride @ Universal one last time, hit the USS Midway down in San Diego, see the Dead Sea Scrolls and crash the Comic-Con.

Wardrobe? I ONLY wear khaki and long pants, and I'm not a celebrity.

Apt sigline, too!lol

Mr. Stovall, a caution on Paras: they don't fit some smaller hands very well. I'm 5'4" and had difficulty wrapping my hand around one, so if you've got a smaller frame it's something to watch out for. For those with the hands, though, the improved time between reloads seems to be worth it...

 

[Story]

Wow, 19Echo*, hadn't heard that in a while.

The MOS that's as much an outdated dinosaur as the tanks we used to ride.

* aka D.A.T.

 

[up196]

Collectors Firearms

If one wanted to aquire an M1911, what would be the best source? Local gun show, gun shop? And I know others made the 1911 besides Colt, are any of them worth a flip?

J.M., If you're in Houston, stop by Collectors Firearms on the corner of Richmond and Fondren. You'll be able to look at 1911 style pistols from the earliest Colt's to the latest offerings from many manufacturers. Helpful folks there, too. If you're not set on a vintage piece, take a good look at the Sig Sauer version of the 1911.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

J.M., If you're in Houston, stop by Collectors Firearms on the corner of Richmond and Fondren. You'll be able to look at 1911 style pistols from the earliest Colt's to the latest offerings from many manufacturers. Helpful folks there, too. If you're not set on a vintage piece, take a good look at the Sig Sauer version of the 1911.

Wow thanks up196. All of you fellas are being real helpful!

 

[Story]

All of you fellas are being real helpful!

Enablers, JM, we're being enablers.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/

 

[Pilotguy299]

Again, the founding principle of our nation is that we allow people their freedoms until they individually prove they cannot handle them. Thus the innocent are not penalized due to the actions of a very few guilty.

Unless you are in Maryland. The sale of a handgun or certain types of long guns aren't marked "approved", they mark the paperwork as "NOT DISAPPROVED".

 

[jamespowers]

Tango,

I'm working on pulling together the actual state data sets for you.

The reason I asked you to provide citations to support your opinions was not to be confrontational. It is due to the very nature of our political system.

When you have a pre-existing right, it is not up to those who would retain the right to justify why they should be able to.

It falls on those who would restrict the right to prove why it should be restricted. If they have only opinion, and no documented evidence that restricting a freedom serves a compelling public need, then the restriction can not legally (or ethically) be emplaced.

Note I don't claim concealed carry laws lower crime rates. As you note, the best recent studies show very little effect except perhaps changing crime types from violent to non-violent (which I would consider a good thing on the whole).

However, the fact that concealed carry may not provide a general deterrant effect is meaningless from a policy perspective. The only justification to restrict carry would be if it increased violent crime, which no study suggests it does.

If there is no significant increase in violence due to concealed carry, there is no reason to prevent people from doing it.

Again, the founding principle of our nation is that we allow people their freedoms until they individually prove they cannot handle them. Thus the innocent are not penalized due to the actions of a very few guilty.

How about some help there dude. I look at these things all the time.
C
ONCEALED CARRY LAWS AND WEAPONS

Myth: Concealed carry laws increase crime

Fact: Thirty five states (and the majority of the American population) live in “right-to-carry” states, and in each the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after
the law became active (as of July, 2006). (1)Three more states generally issue permits, though it is optional ("do-issue").
Fact: Crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1989. 2

Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average and remains below the national average to this day.3

Fact: The serious crime rate in Texas fell 50% faster than the national average after a concealed carry law was passed in 1995.

Fact: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:
• Murder rates drop 8%
• Rape rates fall 5%
• Aggravated assaults drop 7%

Sources and notes:

1 At publication time two more states, Kansas and Nebraska, have pass shall-issue legislation, but the new laws have not yet taken effect.
2 Florida Department of Justice, 1998
3 Cramer C and Kopel D. Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994


Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws 4:
Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.5
Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after
right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.

Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit crimes

Fact: The results for the first 30 states that have passed “shall-issue” laws for concealed carry permits are similar. Here are some specific cases:
State Permits issued Revoked permits % Revoked
Florida 551,0006 109 0.02%
Virginia 50,0007 0 0.00%
Arizona 63,0008 50 0.08%

Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:9
• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public

Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime.
They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.10

Sources:
4 John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had
adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults – and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.
5 FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 2004 - excludes Hawaii and Rhode Island - small populations and geographic isolation create other determinants to violent crime.
6 October 1987 through Jan 1999
7 1995 – no follow-up data available
8 1994 through 1998
9 William Sturdevant, unpublished study reported in August 2000 edition of America’s 1st Freedom
10 Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September, 2000

Special thanks to my friend Guy Smith. :eusa_clap

Regards,

J

 

[HoosierDaddy]

My 70's style Springfield Armory .45 auto. The 1911 is just not as amenable to my hand as revolvers are.

I've never cared for the slanted grip grooves on the slide, but just about everything has them now.

FD
Another good .45 shooter! May I suggest...for a more comfortable "feel" in the hand..try having a curved mainspring housing installed(flat piece along back of grip frame on yours)...and perhaps a set of fingergroove grips. Can make all the difference....
HD

 

[Lincsong]

People sometimes do stupid things. Put a gun on everyone and the incidence of people doing stupid things with guns will rise, simply because the opportunity is there.

This is an assumption that people will want to do stupid things.

Lincsong, I never said that we'd have Dodge City--but your response is a typical one. Do you believe that any idea that you don't agree with is borderline hallucinogenic?

You implied that with a society in which everyone is armed there would be more chances of shooting. I used a colorful illustration. It's just the way I talk.

Actually, my thought is that they would have hoped that we as a nation would have evolved past the point where guns were still needed for self-protection.

We were evolved into that type of society until the late 1950's. We've been devolving since. Up until around 1961 people could freely walk around any major city at any time of the and feel reasonably safe. Gun laws were not as intrusive, yet we didn't have all the shoot-em-ups that the anti-gun crowd moans about.

My position is that for a truly safe and civilized society we need to address the underlying issues that have nothing to do with gun ownership. As I stated before, such a course would not offer a quick-fix, it would take generations to accomplish. Unfortunately, we also live in a society where a large part of the population's attitude is "screw 'em, let them find their own way out of the ghetto." A rather shortsighted view, to be sure.

We also live in a society where many people blame others for their plight yet, refuse to take any responsibility for themselves.

 

[Parallel Guy]

It simply returns to people attempting to force their wills, values and lifestyles on others while making judgemental decisions on people that don't conform to their perceived image. If you want to ski by all means purchase the equipment, get lessons and go to the mountains. But please don't tell me I should learn to ski instead of going to the pistol range. If you choose to become a gun owner and go to a range the same applies- purchase the equipment and get lessons. But most of all, shut the hell up and quit projecting your values on others. You aren't going to change anyone's point of view.

QUOTE]


You really do make a good point with regard to not forcing one set of values on others, my main problem is the idea that some people seem to deny the nature of a gun. It is an inherently dangerous tool. Most reasonable people agree that the car, another dangerous tool, shouldn't be used unless certain criteria is met. Obviously, the car takes more training and skill to use appropriately, but why can't we agree that guns should only be owned by those that have gone through the proper training and licensed? Just as driving a car, age and maturity should be part of the criteria.

fftopic: My largest frustration comes from the idea that compromise is a bad thing. A nation of 300,000,000 must have compromise or we have no unity.

 

[John in Covina]

You really do make a good point with regard to not forcing one set of values on others, my main problem is the idea that some people seem to deny the nature of a gun. It is an inherently dangerous tool. Most reasonable people agree that the car, another dangerous tool, shouldn't be used unless certain criteria is met. Obviously, the car takes more training and skill to use appropriately, but why can't we agree that guns should only be owned by those that have gone through the proper training and licensed? Just as driving a car, age and maturity should be part of the criteria.

fftopic: My largest frustration comes from the idea that compromise is a bad thing. A nation of 300,000,000 must have compromise or we have no unity.

***********
I don't recall a right to drive or right to travel in the constitution, but the right to bear arms is noted as not to be abridged.

 

[John in Covina]

1911

I think there is a special 1911 issue of one of the magazines currently on the newstand.

There are many makers these days so you can pick from some winning levels of upgrades on production guns. If you prefer something less specialized and more old school your best bet is to find a well cared for used one.

Also if you find one either used or new that is more basic level and want to upgrade, there are few pistols that have so many upgraded parts available as well as more than competant, knowledgeable gunsmiths ready to turn an ordinary shooter into an exceptional shooter or combat pistol.

It has been a while since I was looking at parts but Brownells has many of them in their catalog.

I went with a Springfield Amory some time ago with there "Loaded" package and it is pretty nice for the price.

It is alot like the hot rodding speed shops: how fast do you want to go is answered by how much do you want to spend.

One thing is if you suspect you'd like to get serious upgrades , some gunsmiths would not work on the Thompson / Auto Ordanance 1911 as they were cast not forged and it made a difference in the ability to tighten up slide to frame aspects.

As Uncle Jed used to say: "Wellllllll Doggies!"

Anybody got the scoop on the 45 GAP cartridge?

 

[Fatdutchman]

FD
Another good .45 shooter! May I suggest...for a more comfortable "feel" in the hand..try having a curved mainspring housing installed(flat piece along back of grip frame on yours)...and perhaps a set of fingergroove grips. Can make all the difference....
HD

I took off the arched mainspring housing. An arched one just makes the gun want to slip itself out of my hand. The flat one is better. This is just a bad spot on the grip for me. Something about it just don't jibe with my palm. The front part of the grip is fine (though I could stand to have the trigger near a half inch longer!!! If it were about where the front of the triggerguard bow is, that would be about right! ) Ed Brown does a "bobtail" job that whacks off the bottom corner of the butt, and installs a new, chopped corner mainspring housing...kind of making it into a "round butt" gun. I believe something like that would work for me, allowing my hand to get around behind the grip, and more importantly, stay there. I don't know that I like the looks of the thing, though. I also don't know if it really would prove that much better for me. The flat housing is definitely better than the arched one, and I can hold and shoot with comfort, it's just that it is not nearly so growing-out-of-your-hand natural feeling to me as a properly gripped S&W revolver.

I don't shoot the thing much either, which, of course, makes a difference!

I'm going outside tomorrow and burning through a few moon clips in my big Smith....which I can reload faster than the 1911! Who needs an automatic? lol


This is the age of the 1911. You can get anything, and everything you can think of and then some. From the ridiculous to the sublime. Grips, barrels, safeties, sights, hammers, magazine wells, compensators, scope mounts, blued, hard chromed, parkerized, nickeled, powdercoated, laser etched and in just about any color of the rainbow. Most of what is popular now is hardly recognizeable as a 1911.

My "ultimate" .45 auto would be pretty simple. A Colt commander (all steel, of course), with a minor, old fashioned accurizing job, flat housing, long trigger, plain old sights from Kings (I REALLY like the white outline rear, red front!), along with an extended slide stop and maybe the safety, with old fashioned skip-line checkered walnut grips....pretty much what I showed above, but a bit shorter! My late uncle had a Commander when I was a kid in the '70's with skip line checkered grips, which I REALLY liked and that's what I always wanted...

I have a bunch of old Gun Digest books from the '70's, when the custom .45 really started to take off, and this is what I remember as being cool when I was a kid, so I'm kinda stuck in that time period (in more ways than one!). I don't know much about the custom gunsmiths of today, but I know a little bit about Bob Day, Armand Swenson, Pachmayr, and Dick Heinie!

 

[Tango Yankee]

***********
I don't recall a right to drive or right to travel in the constitution, but the right to bear arms is noted as not to be abridged.

Apparently, my opinion of the Second Amendment mirrors that of the United States Supreme Court. The last time the US Supreme Court addressed the issue of the Second Amendment in UNITED STATES v. MILLER, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) the Supreme Court took the position that the purpose of the Second Amendment was just as it is written.

From the Opinion:

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158"

"The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."

That pretty much lays to rest the idea that the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms is meant to be absolute. At least, until such time as the Supreme Court agrees to hear another Second Amendment case and reverses the position.


Cheers,
Tom