Good Wear Modoc

[ton312]

We all have our bias.

This is the point where @Superfluous usually steps in to tell you point by point how wrong you are...(sigh).
Alas.....

John is a rare find, and an amazing craftsman. He makes beautiful jackets.
Nuff said.

SF and I are polar opposites in our preferences. I've never bought his arguments anymore than he's bought mine. But I do miss arguing preferences with him. He always made a strong case for himself. Lol. And you are right about JC. 4 years is a hard thing to argue in favor of tho.

 

[Big J]

@tom312, I didn't take your comment as a slam. Indeed, I have never slammed JC nor his jackets myself.
I have only criticized the attitude of some GW fanboys, because when I have asked why they are worth the price or the wait, have been called a 'hater', 'mentally ill' a 'shill for BR' etc.

 

[Fanch]

I suppose I have come at John Chapman tangentially in that I bought a Goodwear/Himel Californian Ventura and a 1963 Irvin B. Foster G-1 in incredible condition considering the original G-1 is 55 years old. During both purchases I found John to be friendly, helpful, and could most of all discern his passion for what he does. I will say though I'm not on a waiting list; patience is not necessarily my best virtue.

BTW I also miss @Superfluous and think he will return eventually and is just taking a rest. As a trial attorney he is very much attuned to confrontation but don't think he really wants to go in that direction on this forum. I perceive he would be a formidable opponent for virtually any defense attorney on the other table!

 

[regius]

This is beginning to sound so much like the whole Temple of Jawnz deal it's not even funny. Which it might very well be at this point.

It's still just dead animal skin, nylon thread and mass produced hardware - nothing to be overly fussy about. Give any of the specific material GW is using to any tailor over at Aero or Schott or Vanson and they'll make you exactly the same jacket.

I understand your sentiment, but I disagree on the "exactly the same jacket" part. I feel objection to this sweeping statement because of my own hands on practice in garment making in the past three years. Now with inside knowledge of thread tension, the intricate know-how on pattern and seams etc, unless you completely replicate John's set up (his pattern, the way he cut the leather, the exact thread tension) at Schott or Vanson, there's no way Schott can reproduce a GW A2. There is the technical barrier but it is not surmountable. Schott will make hell of an A2 by their own design, or by eyeballing John's jacket, or even by tracing the panels of a GW, but it will not be on the same level.
However, what IS transferrable is the competence of the skilled craftsman. Say you push a Vanson machinist and cutter to replicate John's work to the T, reverse engineer it, I am sure they can be pushed to achieve it, but very unlikely in reality, as this is tied into the third aspect, which probably is the hardest to reproduce, that is the heart.
I can take one maker's jacket to another heritage brand, tell them why I love this jacket and point out all the nuances. The people at the second factory probably will never understand what I mean, even if I could translate my passion and pet peeves into quantitative, tailor language (curve the shoulder at the 3rd inche from neckline, sleeve ease for 5/8 inch, thread tension--don't even know the quantifiable unit here), they will not be bothered to understand me, because my love for this particular jacket is my own. I guarantee after I take delivery, I will not experience the same feel in this replica as of the original.
Whatever John has done in the past 10 years has been a very successful marketing story, and the credit also does not entirely go to him alone because it was the VLJ community that did the most of it. The soul of his jackets earned the trust in select individuals and a hype was created.
Before closing, it does deserve noting that the soul was not created by the jacket itself, it was by his person.

 

[handymike]

Nicely said @regius. His point is accurate: the top tier jacket makers all make very nice quality jackets. Are they quantifyably better? Most of what we praise in them is lost on John Q Public, but like a fine Scotch or Whiskey I have my likes and dislikes. So will you guys. I like GW and I like JC. I also like Thedi jackets, and others too.

 

[regius]

Nice to see that some people are getting wise to things I've been saying for a while; for such a long wait, a premium price seems insulting.
I suspect though, that even if the wait really was 10 years, people would still put themselves 'on the waiting list' because of the snob-factor of the 'exclusivity'. Maybe they liken it to putting yourself on the waiting list for a new Ferrari? Although, of course, it isn't a luxury sports car, it's a leather jacket.

The 'cult' will be apoplectic when they see this thread.

If the wait starts putting people off, and there is no backlog of customers, it'll be interesting to see if prices come down, or if the 'artisan' becomes business man.

Some member over at the VLJ will be quite apoplectic, lol. And, no, the artisan will not likely become the businessman, the artisan would rather cease to exist than to become the businessman.

 

[regius]

Actually, the price of a GW isn't that high. Maybe you are mixing with Himel...or any number of Japanese brands
I find his work to be good value for the $, and they hold up pretty well on the secondary market as well. Others may not.
I don't plan on selling my GW, but all the other jackets are up for grabs ATM.

What do you have for sale?

 

[regius]

@tom312, I didn't take your comment as a slam. Indeed, I have never slammed JC nor his jackets myself.
I have only criticized the attitude of some GW fanboys, because when I have asked why they are worth the price or the wait, have been called a 'hater', 'mentally ill' a 'shill for BR' etc.

Those degrading, snob terms are not acceptable, just as much unacceptable as the war between Ford lovers and Chevy lovers, it's human psychology of in group out group but it's just sad, it's what I consider our reptilian brain's work

 

[mygar]

Well i value craftmanship for sure. Cigars are a hobby of mine and i have high end humidors. All custom built. Golf another.. and yes custom clubs. I like nice things lol

However, i have never put a deposit down on something to be custom made... and have to wait 2, 3, or 4 yrs.

And sorry, you just cant defend taking someones money and having wait times like that. It just isnt good business to your clients. Now you can wait list by all means, but you shouldnt take their money until you near the start of the project...within several months at least.

Im sure they are beautiful jackets though

 

[regius]

Despite all the positive things I attribute to john and his jacket and his dedication, I do agree the customer service aspect can be improved. Open communication, get back on emails etc.

 

[Boyo]

speaking solely for myself, at the time i plunked down my two hundy deposit the wait time was alleged to be about 18 months. I had a big fat round numbered birthday coming up in two years and thought that a GW would be the perfect gift for myself.
as the months have gone by, I really haven't put too much thought into it and have emailed GW about every 4-5 months or so, some emails are returned some aren't. John has apologized for his delays and has offered discounts, original zippers etc.. as a way to try to make it right. Now sitting at 4 years post deposit I'm content to look at the whole thing as a game.. maybe I'll get a jacket maybe I wont.

 

[tmitchell59]

Out of all of Terry’s youtube videos, his “Goodwear Roundup” is my most viewed

I wasn't aware of that. Here is one GW video. I have several others with his jackets.

I've never ordered new from Good Wear. My jacket wait has been a few days in the mail. After those few days of waiting I can understand why people are willing to wait a good deal longer.

I've bought and sold three of his Civilian jackets. The re-sale on GW civilian jackets is pretty strong. They typically sell quickly for a good return. I'll buy another if the opportunity comes along.

John related details of each of the jackets I have owned. He is well aware I did not order new. He re-made my vintage Scully Brothers. Don't get upset, I have not had a conversation with John in some time.

I now have three of Good Wear. I'll be keeping the Imperial and the Poncho Barnes.

there is an expectation that the product is an asset that will eventually appreciate in price making it an investment, but all the second-hand GW jackets I have ever seen have not been more expensive than new ones, which rather shoots down the 'investment asset' aspect of ownership

The Good Wear Civilian jackets hold their value more than most other makers. I'd rather have a few GW in my closet than a bunch from other makers. It is an investment to me. When John is gone the company ends.

imagine a 4 or 5 yr wait... and a jacket shows up that either doesnt fit that well... you dont like... or doesnt meet your expectations. What a bummer that would be. I mean after 4 yr wait obviously you are expecting something magical... but then again just me

I muse about this in my GW Imperial video. Could not figure out why someone would part with such a stunning jacket virtually unworn.

A viewer said something like this: Probably got too fat while he was waiting.

Perhaps the wait is a good thing!

 

[MET]

There is one point that is diffucult to understand. Does he accept new orders despite the open ended waiting time going beyond a couple of years and why? He should have more than enough orders to complete in his lifetime.

 

[Big J]

tmitchell59 raises an interesting point.
I think the only person I ever saw on the Lounge who got a new GW to order was Superfluous (even then I might be mistaken, and there must be other members as well), but the only GW jackets that I can actually remember seeing on the Lounge for sure were all secondhand. So, likewise, I have wondered why owners wait for so long, pay so much, and then give them up. Sizing is done at the end of the wait (right?) so it can't be 4 years of getting too fat for the finished jacket. Financial problems maybe? Changing tastes? It's a mystery.
Also, given the wide range of styles that GW offers, and the long waiting list, I sometimes wonder if John isn't only interested in making one perfect jacket in a style before setting off to make a different style and a new challenge? I don't know.
Maybe he's a poor but dedicated artisan living on scraps in a run down shack, satisfied by a monastic pursuit of excellence?
Maybe he's a multi-millionaire working a couple of hours a day at his own pace in order to stave off the boredom of the idle rich?
Who knows? Maybe it's neither, but neither would surprise me.
But I would love to know where all the customers who kept their new GW jackets are, because they seem pretty scarce around here.
I wonder if Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise would have a 4 year wait if they offered GW 100k to make a jacket this week?

 

[Dickie Teenie]

Now sitting at 4 years post deposit I'm content to look at the whole thing as a game.. maybe I'll get a jacket maybe I wont.

I also had a big fat birthday coming up but I'm throwing in my cards. I've requested a refund.

 

[Monitor]

Maybe he's a poor but dedicated artisan living on scraps in a run down shack, satisfied by a monastic pursuit of excellence?

It would explain this. . .
http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_cdrom_0001.html

 

[ton312]

I also had a big fat birthday coming up but I'm throwing in my cards. I've requested a refund. Maybe I'll hear back maybe I won't.

You should absolutely get your $200 back. I'd dispute w/cc or PayPal if they don't respond. That's nearly a quarter of an Aero!

 

[Seb Lucas]

I quite like some of the GW jackets I've seen but I would never order one. Might buy one if I found a used one going cheap but I don't really venerate brands or makers. I've owned some smashing jackets - Aero, Johnson leathers, and some exceptional hand made local products. But for me it is the vibe of a jacket rather than who makes it or how much it cost or how well it is made that matters. Of all the jackets I have owned, I think the Brooks cafe racer is the best I have seen and owned. Poorly made, badly stitched, shoddy lining, uneven leather - but it just works and looks totally authentic. John Chapman would never be able to make such a slipshod jacket or one I like as much.

 

[navetsea]

maybe.... it is the time to get 1 or 2 assistants? or train a pupil to do simple things and later can take the same style he does... artists do that in the past and present... sword maker, sculptor, comic artist, why not a jacket maker do that?

sure I can understand the passion behind doing handcrafting, cutting a jacket might be one for someone, but sewing a lining, sewing zippers, punching eyelets and snaps, it would be a nice hobby in some first few jackets or when making a new experimental jacket protoyping, but if you have a several years backlog it must be a stressful chore. I also a one guy taking commission drawings... really sometime when things get a little out of hand from unpredictable event like family getting ill or passedaway, and it affect me personally like the whole 2017 after my grandma passed. I don't even enjoy drawing... I still churned out more or less what my hand do with apologetic message about my delays.. but my heart was not there, and it was stressful honestly and I don't have such backlog.

or else
be a stratospheric in price only taking a very small number of selected clients of Princes, billionaires, star athletes, and Hollywood's up and comings celebrities, then everytime it would be a very unique creatively challenging project instead of just pretty similar jacket over and over, an artist would enjoy that better I imagine.

 

[Grayland]

tmitchell59 raises an interesting point.
I think the only person I ever saw on the Lounge who got a new GW to order was Superfluous (even then I might be mistaken, and there must be other members as well), but the only GW jackets that I can actually remember seeing on the Lounge for sure were all secondhand. So, likewise, I have wondered why owners wait for so long, pay so much, and then give them up. Sizing is done at the end of the wait (right?) so it can't be 4 years of getting too fat for the finished jacket. Financial problems maybe? Changing tastes? It's a mystery.
Also, given the wide range of styles that GW offers, and the long waiting list, I sometimes wonder if John isn't only interested in making one perfect jacket in a style before setting off to make a different style and a new challenge? I don't know.
Maybe he's a poor but dedicated artisan living on scraps in a run down shack, satisfied by a monastic pursuit of excellence?
Maybe he's a multi-millionaire working a couple of hours a day at his own pace in order to stave off the boredom of the idle rich?
Who knows? Maybe it's neither, but neither would surprise me.
But I would love to know where all the customers who kept their new GW jackets are, because they seem pretty scarce around here.
I wonder if Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise would have a 4 year wait if they offered GW 100k to make a jacket this week?

I bought a new GW Ventura in Seal Shinki that was delivered in 2015. I waited just about 2 years. It was a beautiful jacket and I got it at the old price of about $1100. Yes, sizing is done at the end. I was instructed to have a picture taken of me wearing a tucked in t-shirt and send that in with the measurements. I assume he uses that picture to get an idea of length and where the jacket would fall in relation to the belt line. About a year ago, I bought a used GW Imperial in Dark Seal Shinki. The Imperial actually fit me even better and the sleeves had been slimmed a bit so it is just perfect. Just to be clear, the Ventura fit really nicely - no complaints. The Imperial fit like I met with JC and he made it while I waited. I was just lucky. I saw no reason to keep two similar halfbelts when I knew I would pick the Imperial every time, so I sold the Ventura.

I never actually communicated with John, I spoke with his assistant, Vickie. She was very quick to reply although I knew what I wanted from the beginning and didn't bug her with a bunch of revisions. I wonder if she no longer works at GW?

I've really figured out my ideal jacket measurements and if the 2nd hand jacket has been measured correctly (I find they usually are), I can be assured of a great fit. The last two jackets I've bought were very high-end, but purchased second-hand at half price. Unless I am lucky enough to actually meet with John Chapman or David Himel (or the guy from Thedi) to get measured, I will probably continue to buy second hand. Unless you meet with them personally, they will build your jacket based on measurements you give them. I prefer to buy based on the measurements of the jacket itself. Might not work for everyone, but it works for me.