Gibson & Barnes: Why the reduction in jackets?

[Jack Burton]

G&B offered about 14 different cloth flight/military jackets in my 2003 catalog. Now they're down to 6 on the website. They seem to be afraid of doing custom work these days too in that they still offer the WEP jacket in satin but they will not make me one out of their Mountain Cloth material (previously a standard jacket of theirs for years).

Anybody know why? Would they rather just concentrate on leather jackets?

 

[nick123]

Looks like the Atascadero, Palisades, Maricopa, and Armee de Air are gone too. I suspect those weren't big sellers.

 

[Edward]

Logic would suggest they've just cut lines that don't sell so well. B15B-Ds, MA1s and later textile jackets just don't seem to have the same market interest. My hunch is that the market there is for either the tiny niche interest of expensive, high end stuff that thry don't want to get into, or the cheap end, mass-market stuff that demands huge economies of scale.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Regarding the custom stuff, it means added complexity to their production lines, having staff with specialized skills, and dealing with customers who don't want the custom jacket they just got. If you notice, Alden, the well know American shoe company, has largely abandoned the only thing that set them apart which was semi-custom and orthotic shoemaking, or they take 10+ months, or they ignore individual customers and/or smaller retailers. You can still get them to do a custom run but only if you're a bigger retailer. Also, keeping staff who have the skills and flexibility to do customized work is (I'm told) almost impossible. I have no doubt G&B are facing the same challenges and simply deciding why bother with the extra hassle?

 

[Edward]

Agree entiely on the custom level. It'll be the same reason why Alpha don't reintroduce their "Replica Series" nylon USAF jackets from the 90s: they're a mainstream retailer, and the small niche market that cares about that just isn't worth it to them. Back in the Sixties, according to legend, the boardroom in Ford's HQ had a sign which read: "We don't make cars, we make money." That's it in a nutshell; if it was making them money, they'd still do it. The profit motive is probably the single most powerful force in a capitalist economy, for the most part at least.

 

[bn1966]

Seems like Weintraub Bros adopted a similar model a whiles back which is a shame....looks like mainly uniforms & wind breakers these days. They did make some lovely flight jackets.

 

[Edward]

What we need is Johnny Depp to wear a B15 or such on screen!

 

[Deacon211]

I suspect that has something to do with the fattening up of the G-1s (and presumably A-2s) as well.

The more traditional cut of the mil jackets (especially the G-1 with the action back) is great if you are a 30 year old Lieutenant, but probably caused a lot of returns for the older crowd, especially these days when everyone tends to carry more around the middle. If you cut the jackets more generously it may not appeal to the purist who wants the historical cut, but to the average consumer who may have never seen a real G-1 it probably passes unnoticed.

 

[bn1966]

I purchased a G&B MA1 in Reg XL and it was...... BIG! Too BIG for me! Waistband covered my rear end...not my sort of fit all I'm afraid. Unless the back rides half way up my back..I'm not a happy bunny. Mind you..I purchased a service issue Alpha L2B that sat around navel height (lengths do seem to vary) and I didn't like that.

 

[Seb Lucas]

G&B offered about 14 different cloth flight/military jackets in my 2003 catalog. Now they're down to 6 on the website. They seem to be afraid of doing custom work these days too in that they still offer the WEP jacket in satin but they will not make me one out of their Mountain Cloth material (previously a standard jacket of theirs for years).

Anybody know why? Would they rather just concentrate on leather jackets?

Why not ask them in an email?

I would assume that there's no point selling products that don't make money and custom work is a pain.

I think things started to change for them when they let Dave Marshall ( a senior manager) go a while back. He was great with customers and would show you around the operation if you went to visit. I imagine that in a tough economy it's very tempting to cut corners and costs and harden the workplace culture.

 

[Deacon211]

I ordered a new G-1 last year from G+B. They were still great, personality-wise, though a little rough on the follow up communication front. At some point, I spoke with the head sales manager (the fact that I could speak to him in relatively short order says a lot about how they value customers) and he was very nice, though I believe he said that he was relatively new in the management position.

At some point as we were were shipping G-1s back and forth across the country in search of a good fit, I asked him why the patterns had changed. He said that he didn't know why the difference in size had been made and his follow on e-mail to the head designer hadn't been answered, though they had discussed it in the course of my dealings with them. But I somewhat gathered that it had been a bit of a feature creep. I mean, I didn't get the impression necessarily that there had been a famous meeting where a series of cost cutting plans had been agreed upon or anything.

Rather, I think that somewhere the conclusion had been reached that free custom work was getting to be a burden and the decision was made to charge for it. At some other time (or over a period of time), some person or series of people in the design department began creeping out the measurements to accommodate a larger range of non-military bodies to reduce the return rate from unsatisfied customers whose jackets didn't fit.

I also got the impression a bit that the designer was reluctant to come straight out and say "Our jackets don't actually follow the Navy patterns anymore" if that is even true as there have always been variations in the design. To be fair, I had also passed on questions to Mr. Eastman about his G-1's stiffness after the zipper began to chafe somewhat. However, beyond the "that's completely normal" response I received, he didn't seem to be interested in talking G-1 authenticity anymore. I generally understand this position, I suppose, as each maker is proud of their offering and is probably not all that keen on what might be considered criticism, even if it is mostly just curiosity of the kind we speak of around here. I understand too that these designers are probably inundated with e-mail and don't have much time for chatting.

I guess the point of all this that I was trying to get to is that I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a single smoking gun answer to why G+B dropped many of their lines, or why they have stepped away from custom work, or why their cut has changed over the years. I just think you are seeing the evolution of a company trying to streamline its business in an ever changing market.

Deacon

 

[Fanch]

Deacon made some extremely valid points. Whenever I am in San Diego, I always make a point of getting on the train (Trolley) in downtown SD and making the just under one hour trip to the G&B factory in El Cajon. Several years ago on one of my first trips, the production manager at that time said that G&B was trying to get away from custom orders because of the number of jackets with which they were stuck for one reason or the other.

Like everyone else, I have also noticed that G&B labeled sizing measurements seem on the high side. Their standard US Air Force A-2 jacket seems to have a somewhat "blousy" fit, and the knits are polyester rather than wool, although the construction is top notch. However, their "historic" jackets are made differently but at a significantly higher price. The times I visited the factory, I didn't look carefully at their US Navy M-422A but in retrospect wish that I had. I did look carefully at their "historic" A-2 jackets and finally settled on their Type A-2 Mark 43 in smooth mahogany (mid to dark brown) HH that does not have a collar stand that was not very comfortable to me with their Mark 31 and Mark 41 models. My correct size was a 40 Tall. As a point of reference I am 6'2" and wear a 42 (long) Aero Maxwell and Mulligan. I have an Aero Bronco size 44 (long) that fits about one size smaller than the G&B size 40T. I normally wear a 44 long sport coat and suit coat.

 

[nick123]

If I remember correctly, they called me to thank me when I placed my first order. And their return policy was extremely generous (I remember them taking back my G-1. Even despite it's acquired cigarette smell). I too noticed a pattern change with one of their Civil A-2s. I don't think I'll be buying from them again for this reason alone. Everything else-their goatskin, tall sizes, customer service; were all top notch, and I'll still vouch for them, if you aren't looking for an authentically military fitting jacket.

 

[Big J]

I think Deacon and some of the other posters have hit the nail on the head.
G&B is streamlining and cost-saving in a bad economy.
Most likely they can get away with it because people who really know and appreciate how trim military jackets are supposed to fit are relatively few, and they are saving themselves a lot of time and money by not having accurate sized jackets, and then having to spend hours dealing from returns from the masses who don't understand why their military sized jacket makes their fat stomach look like a sausage about to burst.

Look at the economics of the situation. there are two choices;

1. Accurate military fit jackets that will satisfy FL posters and such, but leave 99 out of 100 customers sending back for a larger size, or...

2. Over-size the jackets. 99 out of 100 customers fully satisfied first time. 1 in 100 customers has to send a jacket back for a smaller size or a refund.

It's not rocket science, it's the economy!

Anyway, now I'm thinking that I shouldn't waste my time ordering a G&B G-1, and that I should just get another from Lost Worlds.

 

[TXFlyGuy]

I still think G&B is one of the best. Good return policy, quality jacket. Order two jackets, in two sizes for a fit trial...keep the one that fits. Several A-2's have been purchased over the last 18 months from four manufacturers. G&B ranks up there with the best in quality of manufacture.

 

[Deacon211]

I still think G&B is one of the best. Good return policy, quality jacket. Order two jackets, in two sizes for a fit trial...keep the one that fits. Several A-2's have been purchased over the last 18 months from four manufacturers. G&B ranks up there with the best in quality of manufacture.

No doubt G+B makes a quality jacket. I didn't wind up keeping the one I bought, but it was still extremely well made with beautiful leather. I just wish they would have kept the policy of the making the regular G-1 in a standard mil cut and making their "Civil" version which was cut more generously with side pockets.

 

[IXL]

^^^ Their website shows both a Civil and a Navy version. What are the differences between the two, as I've been thinking of ordering one. I'm still bummed about them dropping all the motorcycle jackets from the lineup. The website still references "Motorcycle Jackets" but there is no page to be found.

 

[Fanch]

The Civil G-1 has handwarmer pockets and a few other changes from the USN G-1. It is my understanding that G&B supplies G-1's to the USN, USMC, and USCG. I am more partial to the G&B Navy M-422A than their standard G-1, same as I much favor their Type A-2 Mark 43 over their standard A-2. If one is looking for G&B motorcycle jackets, their clearance pages list quite a few for sale at marked reduction in price.

http://www.gibson-barnes.com/dept-295200/Leather-Jackets.html

 

[IXL]

Thanks, Fanch. The sale page stuff seems to be real small or too large, ******. I wonder which, of the G-1's, M-422a's are a more slim-fitting pattern.

 

[Fanch]

I would think the G&B M-422a would fit differently than the G-1. Next time I'm in SD, I visit the factory again, try on both, and let everyone know.