FS: Lost Worlds J.A. Dubow B-3 (40)

[TREEMAN]

Hopefully the seller will do the rite thing and take the jacket back. imo he is totally in the wrong here. Sell a leather jacket with a tear in it is unacceptable !! Carlos of all people.... will not have a defective jacket ...

 

[Peter Mackin]

I don’t know how you would repair the damage without removing the pocket,,try stitch it in place ?? Either way it’s not as described,,if you decide to move this on please pm me.

 

[Robbie79]

@Carlos840 First of all I feel sorry for you to read this! I 100% believe you! I‘m confident that you will either get a compensation or the seller agrees that you return the jacket as this is a No-Go here!!
@warrior-poet I think this is the wrong forum for you as 99% of the members treat each other like friends and this by far is my favorite forum I‘ve joined in the last >10 years and is the only forum I‘m still an active member. I‘ve bought and sold so many jackets here in the last >5 years and have only made very good experience. With one exception (Lebowski) you can trust people here and it’s just nice to spend so much time with nice members here. I‘m confident that you will reconsider your inappropriate behavior/attitude towards @Carlos840 and will offer him an acceptable offer as a compensation!
Cheers,
Robbie

 

[warrior-poet]

@Carlos840 First of all I feel sorry for you to read this! I 100% believe you! I‘m confident that you will either get a compensation or the seller agrees that you return the jacket as this is a No-Go here!!
@warrior-poet I think this is the wrong forum for you as 99% of the members treat each other like friends and this by far is my favorite forum I‘ve joined in the last >10 years and is the only forum I‘m still an active member. I‘ve bought and sold so many jackets here in the last >5 years and have only made very good experience. With one exception (Lebowski) you can trust people here and it’s just nice to spend so much time with nice members here. I‘m confident that you will reconsider your inappropriate behavior/attitude towards @Carlos840 and will offer him an acceptable offer as a compensation!
Cheers,
Robbie

IF there was a tear at the corner of the pocket, I overlooked it.

@Carlos840 First of all I feel sorry for you to read this! I 100% believe you! I‘m confident that you will either get a compensation or the seller agrees that you return the jacket as this is a No-Go here!!
@warrior-poet I think this is the wrong forum for you as 99% of the members treat each other like friends and this by far is my favorite forum I‘ve joined in the last >10 years and is the only forum I‘m still an active member. I‘ve bought and sold so many jackets here in the last >5 years and have only made very good experience. With one exception (Lebowski) you can trust people here and it’s just nice to spend so much time with nice members here. I‘m confident that you will reconsider your inappropriate behavior/attitude towards @Carlos840 and will offer him an acceptable offer as a compensation!
Cheers,
Robbie

I have tried to outline the situation up-thread, so there's not much point in restating the details. I can only say that I was honestly unaware of the damage Carlos840 describes, and as he himself stated, "if i don't pull on the pocket the leather lays perfectly flat and hides the damage 100%." I did inform him that I was not the original owner, and that I had only worn the jacket a few times, as it is too large for me. That's the truth of it. When he received the jacket, he said, "Great jacket, thanks a lot. It's a bit tight on me, but it works, not that I am going to have many opportunities to wear it with the weather around here. I can't believe how rigid and thick that skeepskin is, i havenever experienced similar sheepskin, it feels tougher than horsehide!" No mention of any damage or that "It is a clearly pretty hevily worn jacket," or that he was disappointed in the jacket in any way. Look at the photos--(they were taken for the listing) I'd be happy to provide more. The jacket is in exceptionally good nick and has obviously been worn very little.

Later, when he contacted me about the pocket issue, I apologized. He did not ask for a return or any kind of compensation. I went through some of my files on original B-3s and noted that the pocket corner was problematic on the originals as well. I sent him photos of an original with a period repair at that spot and offered to contribute to help offset the cost of a repair (it would be a minor job for any competent tailor). He refused. I will of course be happy to give him a refund if he returns the jacket.

 

[Robbie79]

IF there was a tear at the corner of the pocket, I overlooked it.

I have tried to outline the situation up-thread, so there's not much point in restating the details. I can only say that I was honestly unaware of the damage Carlos840 describes, and as he himself stated, "if i don't pull on the pocket the leather lays perfectly flat and hides the damage 100%." I did inform him that I was not the original owner, and that I had only worn the jacket a few times, as it is too large for me. That's the truth of it. When he received the jacket, he said, "Great jacket, thanks a lot. It's a bit tight on me, but it works, not that I am going to have many opportunities to wear it with the weather around here. I can't believe how rigid and thick that skeepskin is, i havenever experienced similar sheepskin, it feels tougher than horsehide!" No mention of any damage or that "It is a clearly pretty hevily worn jacket," or that he was disappointed in the jacket in any way. Look at the photos--(they were taken for the listing) I'd be happy to provide more. The jacket is in exceptionally good nick and has obviously been worn very little.

Later, when he contacted me about the pocket issue, I apologized. He did not ask for a return or any kind of compensation. I went through some of my files on original B-3s and noted that the pocket corner was problematic on the originals as well. I sent him photos of an original with a period repair at that spot and offered to contribute to help offset the cost of a repair (it would be a minor job for any competent tailor). He refused. I will of course be happy to give him a refund if he returns the jacket.

Ok, thanks for your explanations and I hope that you didn’t notice it when shipping the jacket. I‘m sure you‘ll find a way (or already found a way). I just wanted to point out that TFL has an excellent image and reputation of the lounger is very good which has to be maintained for safe buying and selling in the future

 

[Carlos840]

IF there was a tear at the corner of the pocket, I overlooked it.

I have tried to outline the situation up-thread, so there's not much point in restating the details. I can only say that I was honestly unaware of the damage Carlos840 describes, and as he himself stated, "if i don't pull on the pocket the leather lays perfectly flat and hides the damage 100%." I did inform him that I was not the original owner, and that I had only worn the jacket a few times, as it is too large for me. That's the truth of it. When he received the jacket, he said, "Great jacket, thanks a lot. It's a bit tight on me, but it works, not that I am going to have many opportunities to wear it with the weather around here. I can't believe how rigid and thick that skeepskin is, i havenever experienced similar sheepskin, it feels tougher than horsehide!" No mention of any damage or that "It is a clearly pretty hevily worn jacket," or that he was disappointed in the jacket in any way. Look at the photos--(they were taken for the listing) I'd be happy to provide more. The jacket is in exceptionally good nick and has obviously been worn very little.

Later, when he contacted me about the pocket issue, I apologized. He did not ask for a return or any kind of compensation. I went through some of my files on original B-3s and noted that the pocket corner was problematic on the originals as well. I sent him photos of an original with a period repair at that spot and offered to contribute to help offset the cost of a repair (it would be a minor job for any competent tailor). He refused. I will of course be happy to give him a refund if he returns the jacket.

The first message i sent you was after having a quick glance at the jacket when i unboxed it.
I only noticed the signs of wear and the damage later that same day when i got to properly look at the jacket and fully inspect it.
When i mentioned the problem you offered me 35$ which is nothing, you then stopped all communication saying "you are mistaken" as your final message untill i went public.

I would be happy to return the jacket if you are happy to refund me purchase price + shipping and to pay for return shipping.

 

[js0930]

The first message i sent you was after having a quick glance at the jacket when i unboxed it.
I only noticed the signs of wear and the damage later that same day when i got to properly look at the jacket and fully inspect it.
When i mentioned the problem you offered me 35$ which is nothing, you then stopped all communication saying "you are mistaken" as your final message untill i went public.

I would be happy to return the jacket if you are happy to refund me purchase price + shipping and to pay for return shipping.

So you bought a used jacket for half off retail, the seller missed a problem with the stitching (one you acknowledged was quite difficult to notice) and you expect him to eat hundreds of dollars in shipping? I think we’ve all been a little spoiled by Amazon, honestly. Most high end makers don’t even cover shipping for repairs (see the Fine Creek Leather debacle over on Styleforum).

Have you even tried getting a quote for repair?

 

[Carlos840]

So you bought a used jacket for half off retail, the seller missed a problem with the stitching (one you acknowledged was quite difficult to notice) and you expect him to eat hundreds of dollars in shipping? I think we’ve all been a little spoiled by Amazon, honestly. Most high end makers don’t even cover shipping for repairs (see the Fine Creek Leather debacle over on Styleforum).

Have you even tried getting a quote for repair?

It's not about getting it repaired or not.
I spent 1000$ including shipping on this jacket, this was fair if it was in the condition it was said to be in.
In the condition it is actually in i would be lucky to sell it for 500$.
I could lie about the tear and try to make my money back, but if i disclose what i know about this jacket i would be lucky to sell it for $500$.

Why should i as a buyer eat a 500$ devaluation?
Had i known the real condition of the jacket i would not have bought it as it just didn't make sens to spend what it cost to ship it from the US to europe.

If a store sent me a damaged jacket i would expect them to pay for shipping both ways, this is what Vanson did for me 6 months ago when i received a damaged jacket from them.
The fact that this is a person not a store doesn't change anything.

 

[willyto]

The seller sold a jacket "in superb condition (only worn a few times)" that is damaged on arrival and it's clear that wasn't shipping damage.

The seller ought to make it right and cover the price of the repair whatever that is or take it back at his cost (This is not the buyer's fault, it's the seller's fault and only his) and offer a full refund. As simple as that.

Any other outcome is poor service and ill intention to keep the money without making it right by the buyer. It doesn't matter if the damage was known or not previously to selling, it's how the seller acts in this situation what matters now.

 

[Marc mndt]

So you bought a used jacket for half off retail, the seller missed a problem with the stitching (one you acknowledged was quite difficult to notice) and you expect him to eat hundreds of dollars in shipping?

Where do you see a problem with the stitching? I see a tear in the leather of a jacket that was supposed to be in superb condition.

 

[js0930]

Where do you see a problem with the stitching? I see a tear in the leather.

My bad, clearly looked at too many leather jackets this morning before my coffee. However, I think the real question here is what is the sellers responsibility for a defect he was pretty clearly unaware of on a used item of clothing. To me, you buy used goods as is (unless there is actual deception). Chipping in for repairs is definitely reasonable, paying for shipping back would be fair, but beyond that I personally wouldn’t expect more. I’m ignoring the condition question because unless the pictures (which were taken in direct sunlight) were deceptive in some way condition is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[warrior-poet]

Actually, we had four lengthy message and email exchanges after you said you found the damage to the pocket--I can post them if you like. You did not ask to return the jacket, nor did you request compensation of any sort. As I've said, I reviewed my artifact files and sent you photos of a period repair at this same spot--what you called "a small 1/2 inch tear on the right side of the exterior pocket." I offered to pitch in to have a repair done. You refused. After you accused me of intentionally cheating you, I replied simply, "You are mistaken." I could see no benefit in pursuing the conversation.

As you will recall (and it is noted in the original listing as well), I did not want to sell the jacket to an overseas buyer: I told you, "I'm less than enthusiastic about shipping to Belgium." Rather than let it go, you persisted ("Have a think and let me know.."). When I said I'd had difficulties in shipping overseas you thought I meant with foreign purchasers. I replied, "Thanks for your interest in the jacket, Charles. I didn't mean to question your bona fides; rather, I have little faith in the shippers--particularly in the middle of a pandemic and at the holiday season! Additional photos sent via email. Cheers." I just want TFL folks to know the whole story; I never dodged you and I provided you with all of the information and photos you requested. For example, when you queried me about the mismatched hides (redskin & seal brown), I explained that this was common on wartime contractor-produced jackets (you confirmed this with Stu, as I recall). I have tried to be honest and forthright with you from start to finish. Had I known there was a small bit of damage, I would have had it repaired prior to selling. I do not want you to be disappointed, so I will offer to refund you $100 so you can have it repaired, or you can return the jacket and I will refund your purchase price along with return shipping. I think that's a fair.

 

[Carlos840]

I didn't ask for anything because as soon as i mentionned the probem you instantly accused me of suffering from buyers remorse and offered me 35$ which was laughable.

I sent you the picture, you answered:

"Having served in Special Forces, I can attest that these kinds of repairs were performed by the riggers all the time.

Further, while I did not notice any "balding" of the shearling anywhere on the jacket, it is bound to rub off at the hips with very little wear--that's just the nature of shearling. I feel the overall condition of this jacket is exceptional, particularly considering it has passed through the hands of at least three owners thus far. There isn't a single rub or scuff on the exterior and it has not even been broken in yet! Perhaps you are suffering "buyer's remorse"? In any case, I will be happy to offer you a $35 rebate, if you like. "

I said:

"I am not suffering from buyers remorse, buying jackets is what i do.
I am suffering from feeling like i was taken advantage of.
There is no need to go on and on about being ex special forces and trying to normalise the fact that you didn’t describe the jacket as it was.
The pic you sent could have been taken before the rip, just as it was taken before you removed the zipper pull!

35$ won’t change a thing, i am now stuck with a damaged jacket that i spent $1000 on including shipping, $35 is the least of my worries…."

You answered "you are mistaken" which as you said previously meant "I could see no benefit in pursuing the conversation."

I then wrote back:

"What do you mean “I am mistaken”
Either the jacket was shipped to me damaged, or it was damaged in transit, or i damaged it.
I know for a fact i didn’t damage it, i am 99% sure this could have not happened in transit, thus it must have been shipped to me that way no?
What is your explanation?"

To which i received no answer as you could see no benefits in pursuing the conversation.

So my options are to take your 100$, keep a damaged jacket and lose around 400$ in the process, or send it back and lose around 200$ in shipping, just because you couldn't truthfully (intentionally or not) represent an item you were selling... That's a great deal.

 

[Carlos840]

So, to try to settle this matter, if i accept your offer of a refund of the jacket + return shipping, how do we proceed?
I am not ready to ship the jacket back before i have the money back on my paypal as i have no way of knowing you won't disappear with both money and jacket.
Are you happy to refund me 900$ via paypal before i ship the jacket back? i would post the shipping proof + tracking on here so that TFL can be an impartial observer.
My face is known here, i would not risk destroying my reputation just to keep a damaged jacket.

 

[warrior-poet]

So, to try to settle this matter, if i accept your offer of a refund of the jacket + return shipping, how do we proceed?
I am not ready to ship the jacket back before i have the money back on my paypal as i have no way of knowing you won't disappear with both money and jacket.
Are you happy to refund me 900$ via paypal before i ship the jacket back? i would post the shipping proof + tracking on here so that TFL can be an impartial observer.
My face is known here, i would not risk destroying my reputation just to keep a damaged jacket.

Sorry, no. When I have the jacket in hand, I'll promptly post $900 to your PayPal acct. You had to pay for the jacket before I shipped it (as is customary), and I shipped it the day your payment was received and then followed up with an email providing early tracking info.

 

[Carlos840]

Sorry, no. When I have the jacket in hand, I'll promptly post $900 to your PayPal acct. You had to pay for the jacket before I shipped it (as is customary), and I shipped it the day your payment was received and then followed up with an email providing early tracking info.

I trusted you to describe the jacket correctly and here we are, you are now asking me to trust you again, with the possibility of losing money and jacket...

You are now technically buying the jacket back, why is it a problem for you to pay first the other way around?

 

[Peter Mackin]

Seems like another sale that would have been better paid for with PayPal protection.
No protection with friends and family when things go wrong.

 

[Mark R]

I trusted you to describe the jacket correctly and here we are, you are now asking me to trust you again, with the possibility of losing money and jacket...

You are now technically buying the jacket back, why is it a problem for you to pay first the other way around?

With another member expressing an interest and asking you to PM them would it be worth speaking with them and seeing if a price can be agreed with the seller refunding you any difference ? Save on the hassle and high cost if returning the jacket. Obviously everyone would need to show a level of faith but it may be the best option for everyone. The seller takes a small loss and the jacket goes to someone who is interested. ? Just an idea.

 

[Carlos840]

With another member expressing an interest and asking you to PM them would it be worth speaking with them and seeing if a price can be agreed with the seller refunding you any difference ? Save on the hassle and high cost if returning the jacket. Obviously everyone would need to show a level of faith but it may be the best option for everyone. The seller takes a small loss and the jacket goes to someone who is interested. ? Just an idea.

I would be up for that, if anyone in the EU wants it at a lower price and the seller is ready to refund me partially so that i break even or close to it i would be happy to ship it on to somebody else.
I will happily take more pictures representing the condition of the jacket better too.

 

[Monitor]

That's a really good plan. These jackets are pricey so this might turn out to be a massively good deal for someone in the EU. Even the size is more rare.