Frightening Trend - Article.

[airfrogusmc]

lol lol lol I can see why you don't run a creative department.....

 

[carebear]

Do you know whos quote and photo I posted?

This slob?

yeah, that tie really knocked hell out of his picture taking ability....

 

[airfrogusmc]

For the camera my friend. He usually dressed in jeans and work type shirts.

 

[Lincsong]

lol lol lol I can see why you don't run a creative department.....

I run a sales department.

 

[carebear]

For the camera my friend. He usually dressed in jeans and work type shirts.

Right, but his "office" was Yellowstone or his own studio. He wore appropriate clothes for his environment.

If he had worked in business, he probably would have dressed appropriately there. He was a man of class from a time when folks dressed to fit their surroundings.

I'm not sure how a bunch of identically grunged out "creative" types in an internet start-up are any more independently or creatively dressed than folks in any other work uniform. If I want to indulge myself in my business clothes I can get a little wild with my fabric or color choices, suit cut and fit, tie, cufflinks etc.

I know my bosses (and underwriter) think my mortgage solutions are "creative".

If they can't produce in a suit, how creative can they really be. [huh] I'm more inclined to blame habit of dress. Most have probably been casually dressed through their school and interning, so staying dressed casually is "natural" and convenient. If they'd started out dressing well, they'd probably be dressing well today. Given that they dress like their peers now, I'm more than half convinced they'd be dressing like them if they all wore khakis and polos.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I'm not trying to say that theres not a certain creativity in what you've described but mortgage company is not the first thing that comes to mind when I'm thinking creative professions.

First of all real creativity usually doesn't happen on demand. Its usually in those day dream states or at night or while listening to music, etc. Its hard for left brained people to even begin to understand as is evident in some of the responses. The world needs both left and right brained folks. As do most businesses. I think I've already said I dress to the occasion as do most creative people I know. But if you work in a creative field your job is like Ansel Adams when we was out creating his photographs. Whatever it takes for you to do your best creative work is all that should be important. That means if you create better in a suit so be it but if you wear jeans so what. Its the final result that should be important.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Linc I guess I keep forgetting, why does it upset you so that some creatives are wearing jeans to work. I'm sure most of them don't care that your not wearing jeans to your job. It sounds like you would want everyone to dress the same kinda like what they used to do in China.

 

[carebear]

I'm not trying to say that theres not a certain creativity in what you've described but mortgage company is not the first thing that comes to mind when I'm thinking creative professions.

Let me tell you about sales sometime. There's guys out there who could sell you the clothes you walked in wearing and have you say "thank you" and give them a referral on the way out the door.

But if you work in a creative field your job is like Ansel Adams when we was out creating his photographs. Whatever it takes for you to do your best creative work is all that should be important. That means if you create better in a suit so be it but if you wear jeans so what. Its the final result that should be important.

Good point. Not sure I totally agree, but "appropriate" is situational. I'm just not sure that the "necessity" is really there in the situation. But I lack personal experience.

 

[Katt in Hat]

One little slip and the inner man fully reveals himself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincsong

"Regimentalism is needed for success."

Ah Ha!!! < his favourite Smilie

John Dean indicates that there is a type of mindset, The Authoritarian Follower.

As valid as any other type but bears watching.

 

[Curt Chiarelli]

At the risk of catching hell from three divergent parties simultaneously, I thought I'd toss my fedora into that particular brass ring and add my perspective to the "creativity/dress code" issue since I'm a designer, sculptor and illustrator by trade.

Let's ask the following questions: was Joseph Urban, the famous Viennese-trained architect and set designer, any less of a genius for being nattily attired and punctually arriving at his office in the art department of the Boston Opera? Was Cary Grant's thespic muse stifled under all those bespoke suits? Were the nerve impulses between the head and hand of painter J.W. Waterhouse severed by the vise grip of the starched imperial collar his neck was encased in?

Nope. Clothes are a reflection of the values of the society and the people who choose to wear them. The peacock's plummage is not all vanitas - it is something more, a Rorschardt ink blot for an entire culture, if you will. The message we as a society are broadcasting to the rest of the world is a piggish one of arrested maturity, amorality, insufferable boorishness and self-centeredness taken to berserk levels.

 

[jamespowers]

Let's ask the following questions: was Joseph Urban, the famous Viennese-trained architect and set designer, any less of a genius for being nattily attired and punctually arriving at his office in the art department of the Boston Opera? Was Cary Grant's thespic muse stifled under all those bespoke suits? Were the nerve impulses between the head and hand of painter J.W. Waterhouse severed by the vise grip of the starched imperial collar his neck was encased in?

Nope. Clothes are a reflection of the values of the society and the people who choose to wear them. The peacock's plummage is not all vanitas - it is something more, a Rorschardt ink blot for an entire culture, if you will. The message we as a society are broadcasting to the rest of the world is a piggish one of arrested maturity, amorality, insufferable boorishness and self-centeredness taken to berserk levels.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[jamespowers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincsong

"Regimentalism is needed for success."

Ah Ha!!! < his favourite Smilie

John Dean indicates that there is a type of mindset, The Authoritarian Follower.

As valid as any other type but bears watching.

Uh, I don't get your point. Of course John Dean would say that. He sees black helicopters in his sleep.
http://www.geocities.com/area51/8616/midi/common.mid

Regards,

J

 

[herringbonekid]

I think the point that you are missing is that these companies because of relaxed dress codes and very creative environments attract the most creative people. Thats why they have been so successful. They are attracting the free thinkers that are coming up with the new ideas. Allot of companies like IBM have noticed this and loosened things up in their creative areas. Whatever you believe helps you in your creativity whether its wearing a suit or wearing jeans it shouldn't matter. What matters is the work. But I will tell you most of the really creative people I know stay as far away from companies with dress codes as they can get. If you are really good there are plenty of alternatives...

i agree that a strict 'conservative' dress code in a creative environment may lead to resentment among the creatives and therefore reduced creativity. but why does a free dress code have to equal t-shirts and jeans ? i work in animation and most of the young 'creatives' look like they've just rolled out of bed and picked up the first things they found on the floor (almost always a t-shirt and jeans. frequently at work they'll kick off their shoes too and slide around in socks). it's funny, because artists once had a reputation for dressing extravagantly, even dandyishly. sadly those days are long gone. most artists are indistinguishable from the rest of the generic ultra-low maintenance-wear masses.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Uh, I don't get your point. Of course John Dean would say that. He sees black helicopters in his sleep.
http://www.geocities.com/area51/8616/midi/common.mid

Regards,

J

Katt this is another thing that Dean discuses. He talks about the way the new right attacks anyone that is even slightly critical. Like what you just did JP. Oh Dean is just an idiot because he sees helicopters at night. Forget the fact he was in the Nixon White House and has personally seen a major change in the Republican Party in the past 10 years. Folks like Liddy were once considered the fair right (nut jobs) are now the center. Look at the way they went after their own in the primaries before the first Bush election in 2000. John McCain was attacked on his military record. He's no hero trying to discredit his service. A writer writes a story critical of the White House on the credibility of a piece of info they were using on the road to war, they outted his CIA wife. Speaking of do anything to win because the means justify the end in exactly the Rove mantra.

 

[McPeppers]

I'm not nor ever will be a fan of "grunge" looks but... I'm fine with the fact companies dont want their employees to look like carbon-copy reproductions of eachother.

Can't we go back the the ever ambiguous "business-casual" style? lol

 

[SGB]

I spent my entire career in Silicon Valley as a Graphic Designer/Illustrator/Art Director. I worked for major corporations and freelanced a lot (including doing the original tech sheet for a business prospectus for a new company that I later discovered was run by Jobs and Woz....Apple), and I always wore jeans, nice shirts and an occassional sports coat. I worked for some major clients in the valley and never wore a suit or tie, my work spoke for me. I never felt intimidated or underdressed. During a lull in business (happens in the Valley about every 5 years) I took a job in sales at a high end luggage store, and wore a suit and tie everyday. I wouldn't wear jeans in that environment as it would have been inappropriate. Business picked up in the Valley and I got another corporate job, this time not in Graphics (I hate Computer Graphics, boring to do), and wore slacks, ties and sportcoats everyday. This company was corporate casual and I was overdressed but comfortable, I didn't care what others wore and they didn't care what I wore, some complimented my attire. But, it had nothing to do with my job, my ability to do my job, my relationship with my coworkers etc. I just liked to dress that way, except of course on Hawaiian shirt paydays, when we all wore Hawaaiin shirts.
Now that I'm retired I have given all my suits away, my 200+ ties are stored, but I do still have some nice slacks and sportcoats that I rarely wear. Dressing up is now khaki pants and a dressy Hawaiian shirt, maybe some Alligator shoes for fun (leftover from corporate days).
Never once did I feel that I was not properly dressed in my career, and to say that dressing up makes a company more successful is rubbish. I never would have worked for a company that had a dress code, I let my work speak for me and always managed to "fit in" just as I was, no worse or better dresser than anybody else.
I have worn jeans my entire life and will always do so, they are perfect for me. And yes I wear jeans and sportcoats all the time, although usually Wranglers and boots as that is dressy in the Cowboy world.
Being comfortable is more important to me than being fashionable, and I don't look down on someone because of what they wear. I look at the person not the clothes.

SGB

 

[Lincsong]

Dress codes build; strong, assertive, bold, and competitive environments. When employees are dress properly, and I don't care if it's a $5 clip on tie from Wal-Mart, there is more respect for other employees, the task at hand and the customers served. Sloppily dressed work environments lead to increased tardiness, general laziness and slothfulness. At the company I work at there is a no jeans policy period! That applies to the warehousemen, long haul truckers and repairmen. Although ties aren't required for those jobs. This particular company is also run by the most anti-presumptious family I have ever worked for; the owner kept a flock of homing pigeons on the roof of headquarters in Torrance, CA, he drove in a 1963 Lincoln until his death in 1994. At lunch when he fed the pigeons he put on coveralls, but when he was done he was back in the office in a tie.

Walt Disney didn't build up his company by looking like the field pickers in Orange County. He's probably the most creative animator ever.:eusa_doh:

John Dean? How fftopic: can we get. I won't even venture there since the thread started on his silly book was shut down.

By the way, are there any fashionable pictures of John Dean's wife in white go go boots and a mini-skirt circa 1970 in that book?

 

[richstyle]

Conned by Converse

Grubs, an interesting phenom. I saw Brian Seacrest in a restaurant on Tuesday and he had on a well-cut jacket and shirt, a rather smart casual look, but when he stood up he had on jeans that were oh so carefully smudged and torn and worst of all, a pair of Converse. If you're 18, I think you can get away with it--and be forgiven for such grubbiness, but the look is not flattering to a grown up. It sort of makes him look hip but at the same time retarded. A good pair of shoes would have made a world of difference.

 

[McPeppers]

I was a fan of the pre grunge look where you could forego the suit jacket and just wear a nice collared shirt (either Polo or Dress) and respectable pants (with belt) and dress shoes. It was the archetypical "Business Casual" and is both comfortable and makes you look like you care what you do.

Note: thats not saying if you don't look good you don't care. But to the customer or passer-by you "look" the part.

 

[airfrogusmc]

They work well for the military and places like banks and other financial institutions but are disastrous for creative environments. To have dress codes means you are trying to strip away individuality and to encourage creativity you need individual free thinkers, not the type to follow regulations. You also keep mentioning these old institutions. Some like IBM are losing good creative people to the places that support and encourage creativity and free thinking.

Why does this type of work environment get you so angry? I remember a great line that Jack Nicholson delivers in Easy Rider.
"They're not afraid of you, they're afraid of what you represent, freedom." And the Fonda character say back "They're all Americans. They're free."
Nicholson replies" Yeah but say'n it and liv'n it are two different things." Dress are fine for some jobs but remember that doesn't mean its right for all.