Formal Wear Primer

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

advice welcome

Even for black tie, I like the more formal variety of shirts better, i. e. higher wing collar and bib. Is there a way of combining the boiled-shirt look with the ability to move as freely as with a soft shirt? I'm talking about a plain front, not a marcella/piqu?© fabric.

It's been some time since I last dressed white tie, and that time, it was a rented RTW piqu?© bib.

1. If the bib of a regular boiled shirt is large enough to fill the space between (U shaped) waistcoat and lapels even when I move, but not unnecessarily larger, would it bulge or impede my mobility?

2. Would a regular shirt fabric be still too soft even if I generously spray starch on it? I could choose a stronger fabric for bib, collar and cuffs, and have the rest of the shirt made in a cooler fabric. This way I could machine wash it, and it'd be more comfortable. If this makes any sense, do you have any recommendations for the (stronger) fabric?

I'm aware that this would be uncommon - higher and larger wing collar, single cuffs (for links), studs, yet no real cardboard, but I just don't feel like marcella/piqu?© right now - always reminds me of tennis shirts.

 

[shindeco]

Even for black tie, I like the more formal variety of shirts better, i. e. higher wing collar and bib. Is there a way of combining the boiled-shirt look with the ability to move as freely as with a soft shirt? I'm talking about a plain front, not a marcella/piqué fabric.

1. If the bib of a regular boiled shirt is large enough to fill the space between (U shaped) waistcoat and lapels even when I move, but not unnecessarily larger, would it bulge or impede my mobility?

The bosoms of all of my (older) vintage shirts are all quite small. Just barely big enough to fit under the waistcoat. Most of mine from the thirties only take 2 shirt studs. The bosoms generally got larger as the twentieth century progessed. Modern shirts have very large fronts compared with older shirts. the smaller shirt fronts really don't make any difference to movement, in my experience (and I've even danced in them...)

2. Would a regular shirt fabric be still too soft even if I generously spray starch on it? I could choose a stronger fabric for bib, collar and cuffs, and have the rest of the shirt made in a cooler fabric. This way I could machine wash it, and it'd be more comfortable. If this makes any sense, do you have any recommendations for the (stronger) fabric?

I have one vintage boiled shirt where the bib is the same fabric as the rest of the shirt; just two (or possibly three) layers of the fabric but in every way, a "regular" boiled shirt (single cuffs, detachable collar...). I usually starch it stiff but there's no reason why it would have the same general look with less starch. It's a good quality, but not too heavy cotton. Linen shirt fronts were listed as being as acceptable as pique in many of the older descriptions I've found.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Thanks a lot!

I usually starch it stiff but there's no reason why it would have the same general look with less starch.

Is this a typo for "wouldn't"?

I think I'll get mesyn some starch and experiment on the next past-remedy shirt before I throw it away.

 

[dostacos]

having read this whole thread, I presume this won't cut it [except to make ME happy] to be a bit more period, I need a much lower waist coat instead of vest, and bow tie.

I want the contrasting color as that will help slim the look and I need all the help I can get in that department

 

[shindeco]

Thanks a lot!



Is this a typo for "wouldn't"?

I think I'll get mesyn some starch and experiment on the next past-remedy shirt before I throw it away.

lol yeah, that's a typo!

 

[Anthony Jordan]

having read this whole thread, I presume this won't cut it [except to make ME happy] to be a bit more period, I need a much lower waist coat instead of vest, and bow tie.

I want the contrasting color as that will help slim the look and I need all the help I can get in that department

Assuming we are talking black tie, I would recommend a 3-4 button white pique shawl collar waistcoat with a black barathea self-tie bow tie. If white tie, substitute a white pique self-tie bow tie.

If you are thinking about morning dress, the sort of combination you show would work, although a grey wool or buff linen waistcoat (single or double-breasted) would be more traditional.

 

[Peacoat]

Originally Posted by shindeco
"It is certainly acceptable to wear [white tie and tails] to any event which is black tie."

I respectfully disagree. If the event is black tie, a gentleman wearing white tie and tails would be considered overdressed and not in good taste. Black tie is just that, and white tie is a separate animal. The two are not interchangeable.

 

[kschurch]

This topic has been well covered and I'm a few days late, but I'd like to throw in my two cents on what I feel are a few formal wear basics.

For some marketing reason ties and cummerbunds have been sold in hundreds of awful colors and patterns and they always match. In my opinion, they look ridiculous. The one true color for your tie and cummerbund should be black. However because rules are always broken, I believe if one wants to change things up that one may wear an off colored bow tie, maybe in burgandy or a soft pattern but keep one's cummerbund black.

With a black cummerbund on top of black formal trousers one will appear taller and slimmer. The waist isn't broken up with a garish sash of tapestry that screams "look at my gut!" Unless you're sitting down, your jacket should be buttoned anyway and no one will see your cummerbund except when you unbutton at the appropriate times. Then you will look finished and well detailed...even if your bow tie isn't black. I believe neck ties and collar buttons are always in bad form. They just look wrong!

Also, some in this thread made reference to formal shoes or the lack thereof. You can find great Allen Edmond formal shoes on the Allen Edmonds ebay store. The "Ritz" is a wonderful opera pump that is often listed and usually goes for far, far less than retail. There's just not that many men who will wear a shoe with a bow on it but it is a wonderful look with black tie. This model also comes in a lace up.

A few years ago I found a pair of "Ritz" opera pumps in black velvet corduroy and they are my favorite formal shoes. Everyone else passed and I picked them up for less than $100.00.

Hope this is helpful!! It's nice to have a site to share ideas.

 

[Midnight Blue]

The one true color for your tie and cummerbund should be black. However because rules are always broken, I believe if one wants to change things up that one may wear an off colored bow tie, maybe in burgandy or a soft pattern but keep one's cummerbund black.

I agree that matching cummerbund & bow tie sets should be shunned. However if a man was going to choose one or the other to add colour to his outfit, I agree with Alan Flusser that it should be the waist covering, not the tie:

"Injecting more than one contrasting accessory into the two-color format fragments its formal integrity into smaller, less important pieces. By limiting your selection to only those components predominantly bordered by black, such as the waistcoat, cummerbund, dress shirt or pocket square, you have ensured that this single dollop of dissonance remains part of the whole."

Unlike the waistcoat, cummerbund or handkerchief, a contrasting bow tie is not framed by a dark color and therefore stands out as a glaring distraction. This has the effect of gift wrapping the neck and detracting from the face which is supposed to be the focal point of the suit.

Of course, it should go without saying that any colour used for black-tie accesories should be deep, rich colours such as plum and bottle green.

 

[kschurch]

Excellent point MB. Also, I'm not one to argue with Flusser, however from my own personal experience I found wearing a black cummerbund looks to be an extension of my black trousers. The only alternate neckwear I have is a rich burgandy tie with a fine check print...as you graciously point out.

Since my tuxedo is properly fit, I always keep it buttoned except when sitting. The cummerbund isn't really noticeable. Of course my preference wouldn't apply to waistcoats, vests or "white Tie" ensembles.

I think we'd both agree that any man wearing brightly colored or patterned neckwear with a tuxedo is missing the point of "black tie". Ultimately, the best and proper ensemble is black cummerbund, black bow tie. One will never look bad in that outifit!

Nice link!

 

[Midnight Blue]

I too like the way that a black cummerbund extends the length of the legs. Particularly when worn with the high-waisted trousers that were popular with mess jackets in the early 30s. It sure would be great to come across that combination at a vintage clothing shop!

 

[kschurch]

Agreed! That would be a look that shows off the cummerbund nicely. Unfortunately, there isn't a chance of finding any thing like that in a vintage store in Idaho!

Great drawing. Is that website yours?

 

[Feraud]

I too like the way that a black cummerbund extends the length of the legs. Particularly when worn with the high-waisted trousers that were popular with mess jackets in the early 30s.

I am glad to see this thread is receving more attention. It is an interesting one.
I recently purchased a 30's (NRA label) shawl colar tux. It is a beauty! I cannot wait to show a few pictures of it and to point out the details. It is very high waisted with suspender buttons, button fly, belt and buckle on the rear waistband, and button pockets (?). A lovely piece of tailoring.

 

[Edward]

If I'm correct, a frock coat or suit was regular daytime wear. Often you'd see it paired with various types of grey striped trousers, much like the cutaway coat.

The frock coat was at one time the norm for formal daywear. The cutaway, or morning coat, with its swallow tails was a less formal version of the frock coat, cut to be worn with greater easy on horseback (if memory serves, evening tails also had equestrian origins). By the thirties, this slightly less formal version had become the norm. Personally, I lean to the view that the cutaway shape is much more flattering on most men, creating a slimmer figure. a square frock coat can emphasise bulk, not to mention the fact that it can give the shorter gentleman a real "cut off at the knee" look, in my opinion.

An all-grey morning "suit" was a less formal alternative to the black jacket with striped (or checked) trousers. At a formal occasion such as a wedding, it wasn't an option, the exception being that the groom and the father of the bride could wear a grey coat, and also had the option of wearing grey matching trousers. Maybe the theory was that they both had the most stressful day, and were therefore allowed to relax the rules a little? lol Personally, I love the look of a grey morning coat, but for an occasion such as a wedding I'd still have a preference for striped rather than grey trousers.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Agreed! That would be a look that shows off the cummerbund nicely. Unfortunately, there isn't a chance of finding any thing like that in a vintage store in Idaho!

Great drawing. Is that website yours?

Yep, the web site is my pet project. I am currently in the process of revising the whole thing to add information I've discovered in the year since I first started posting the various sections and to also create a more consistent writing style across all the sections. With any luck it will be finished by the new year!

 

[kschurch]

Midnight Blue

Well MB...That's a nice website you've put together. I've only had a chance to glance it over, but I fully plan to look at it in depth right away.

I enjoyed our conversation. Keep up the good work!

 

[Feraud]

Yep, the web site is my pet project. I am currently in the process of revising the whole thing to add information I've discovered in the year since I first started posting the various sections and to also create a more consistent writing style across all the sections. With any luck it will be finished by the new year!

Great job on the site. I frequently read it.

 

[Lensmaster]

Midnight blue dj

If wearing midnight blue does both the jacket and pants have to be that color? Is it permissable at all to wear a midnight blue dinner jacket with black pants?

 

[Midnight Blue]

If wearing midnight blue does both the jacket and pants have to be that color? Is it permissable at all to wear a midnight blue dinner jacket with black pants?

The two colours are not mixed. Midnight blue is so close to black that I suspect your outfit would end up looking like a mismatched suit.

 

[Lensmaster]

wing collar with DJ

I have a pleated turndown collar shirt but want to get a wing collar shirt for more formality. I don't think pleats look right with a wing collar, and I don't believe are traditionally accurate. My question is does the wing collar shirt have to have a pique bib or is it appropriate to wear one that is plain cotton?