Formal Wear Primer

[Midnight Blue]

I have a pleated turndown collar shirt but want to get a wing collar shirt for more formality. I don't think pleats look right with a wing collar, and I don't believe are traditionally accurate. My question is does the wing collar shirt have to have a pique bib or is it appropriate to wear one that is plain cotton?

The original full dress shirt (aka the "boiled shirt") had a heavily starched plain cotton front. The pique bib did not became popular on full dress shirts until the 1920s. Both styles have always been acceptable with black tie (at least in the U.S. - the English are not big fans of pairing the formal wing collar with the semi-formal dinner suit).

As for pleats on a wing collar, while some like Alan Flusser may strongly disagree with its appropriatenes, the fact is that it has been an option for a very long time. I actually have a 1902 reference to such a shirt and the ad below is from 1934.

Peter

 

[jamespowers]

The original full dress shirt (aka the "boiled shirt") had a heavily starched plain cotton front. The pique bib did not became popular on full dress shirts until the 1920s. Both styles have always been acceptable with black tie (at least in the U.S. - the English are not big fans of pairing the formal wing collar with the semi-formal dinner suit).

As for pleats on a wing collar, while some like Alan Flusser may strongly disagree with its appropriatenes, the fact is that it has been an option for a very long time. I actually have a 1902 reference to such a shirt and the ad below is from 1934.

Peter

I'll take the one on the right please. Heavy starch.

 

[Orgetorix]

I'll take the one on the right please. Heavy starch.

Sigh. James, the whole point of the pleated shirt is that it's soft-fronted!

 

[jamespowers]

Sigh. James, the whole point of the pleated shirt is that it's soft-fronted!

What keeps the pleats nice and crisp then?
A dress shirt, formal or otherwise, without starch is like a cocktail without alcohol---it can be done but why? [huh]

 

[AlanC]

Don't Jeeves and Wooster have a go to over Wooster's attempts to wear a mess jacket? Hilarious.

I too like the way that a black cummerbund extends the length of the legs. Particularly when worn with the high-waisted trousers that were popular with mess jackets in the early 30s. It sure would be great to come across that combination at a vintage clothing shop!

 

[Orgetorix]

Don't Jeeves and Wooster have a go to over Wooster's attempts to wear a mess jacket? Hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRbBE_DlIww

 

[Orgetorix]

The first intimation I had that things were about to hot up was a pained
and disapproving cough from the neighbourhood of the carpet. For, during
the above exchanges, I should explain, while I, having dried the frame,
had been dressing in a leisurely manner, donning here a sock, there a
shoe, and gradually climbing into the vest, the shirt, the tie, and the
knee-length, Jeeves had been down on the lower level, unpacking my
effects.

He now rose, holding a white object. And at the sight of it, I realized
that another of our domestic crises had arrived, another of those
unfortunate clashes of will between two strong men, and that Bertram,
unless he remembered his fighting ancestors and stood up for his rights,
was about to be put upon.

I don't know if you were at Cannes this summer. If you were, you will
recall that anybody with any pretensions to being the life and soul of
the party was accustomed to attend binges at the Casino in the ordinary
evening-wear trouserings topped to the north by a white mess-jacket with
brass buttons. And ever since I had stepped aboard the Blue Train at
Cannes station, I had been wondering on and off how mine would go with
Jeeves.

In the matter of evening costume, you see, Jeeves is hidebound and
reactionary. I had had trouble with him before about soft-bosomed shirts.
And while these mess-jackets had, as I say, been all the rage--_tout ce
qu'il y a de chic_--on the Cote d'Azur, I had never concealed it from
myself, even when treading the measure at the Palm Beach Casino in the
one I had hastened to buy, that there might be something of an upheaval
about it on my return.

I prepared to be firm.

"Yes, Jeeves?" I said. And though my voice was suave, a close observer in
a position to watch my eyes would have noticed a steely glint. Nobody has
a greater respect for Jeeves's intellect than I have, but this
disposition of his to dictate to the hand that fed him had got, I felt,
to be checked. This mess-jacket was very near to my heart, and I jolly
well intended to fight for it with all the vim of grand old Sieur de
Wooster at the Battle of Agincourt.

"Yes, Jeeves?" I said. "Something on your mind, Jeeves?"

"I fear that you inadvertently left Cannes in the possession of a coat
belonging to some other gentleman, sir."

I switched on the steely a bit more.

"No, Jeeves," I said, in a level tone, "the object under advisement is
mine. I bought it out there."

"You wore it, sir?"

"Every night."

"But surely you are not proposing to wear it in England, sir?"

I saw that we had arrived at the nub.

"Yes, Jeeves."

"But, sir----"

"You were saying, Jeeves?"

"It is quite unsuitable, sir."

"I do not agree with you, Jeeves. I anticipate a great popular success
for this jacket. It is my intention to spring it on the public tomorrow
at Pongo Twistleton's birthday party, where I confidently expect it to be
one long scream from start to finish. No argument, Jeeves. No discussion.
Whatever fantastic objection you may have taken to it, I wear this
jacket."

"Very good, sir."

He went on with his unpacking. I said no more on the subject. I had won
the victory, and we Woosters do not triumph over a beaten foe. Presently,
having completed my toilet, I bade the man a cheery farewell and in
generous mood suggested that, as I was dining out, why didn't he take the
evening off and go to some improving picture or something. Sort of olive
branch, if you see what I mean.

He didn't seem to think much of it.

"Thank you, sir, I will remain in."

I surveyed him narrowly.

"Is this dudgeon, Jeeves?"

"No, sir, I am obliged to remain on the premises. Mr. Fink-Nottle
informed me he would be calling to see me this evening."

"Oh, Gussie's coming, is he? Well, give him my love."

"Very good, sir."

"Yes, sir."

"And a whisky and soda, and so forth."

"Very good, sir."

"Right ho, Jeeves."

I then set off for the Drones.

...

 

[jamespowers]

Which way up does it go! lol lol

 

[David V]

I have an English formalwear shirt (pique with a bib front) that buttons in the back with a detachable collar as well. Damnably difficult on nights when the butler has the night off...

... doesn't make for a comfortable nightshirt.

Sign me: Slept in one before

Audry Hepburn had no such trouble in " Breakfast at Tiffany's."

 

[Lensmaster]

Yep, the web site is my pet project. I am currently in the process of revising the whole thing to add information I've discovered in the year since I first started posting the various sections and to also create a more consistent writing style across all the sections. With any luck it will be finished by the new year!

Great website. I've been looking it over and learning a lot. I like the detailed history.

 

[Lensmaster]

Tonight I was watching the 1935 film of Anna Karenina. In this films version of late 19th century Russian formal wear the men wore white tie with black waistcoats and shawl collars on their tailcoats. I don't know if they researched this and it was accurate or if it was out of a costume designers imagination.

 

[metropd]

Originally Posted by shindeco
"It is certainly acceptable to wear [white tie and tails] to any event which is black tie."

I respectfully disagree. If the event is black tie, a gentleman wearing white tie and tails would be considered overdressed and not in good taste. Black tie is just that, and white tie is a separate animal. The two are not interchangeable.

Infact it is perfectly acceptable . Just look at 20's or 30's movies and pictures of special events and you will see the the social elite many times wear white tie to black tie.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Infact it is perfectly acceptable . Just look at 20's or 30's movies and pictures of special events and you will see the the social elite many times wear white tie to black tie.

Etiquette authorities and menswear dress charts from the 1920s and 1930s make very clear distinctions between occasions that are appropriate for full dress (now called white tie) and informal/semi-formal evening dress (now called black tie). The 1925 edition of Vogue's Book of Etiquette in particular makes it especially clear that formal attire is never to be worn to informal occasions when it says that "people of the social world are supposed to dress for each other, not for the populace." It explains that when well-bred ladies and gentlemen visited public places such as restaurants, theaters, hotels and ocean liners it was considered bad taste not to "modify their full fineries."

After the war the definition of formal and informal began to be interpreted differently among various regions and social classes. Thus, the rise of "black tie" and "white tie" dress codes designed to make the host's intentions crystal clear. There are a lot of aspects of etiquette that are somewhat gray but this one is truly black and white (no pun intended).

Peter

 

[Midnight Blue]

Tonight I was watching the 1935 film of Anna Karenina. In this films version of late 19th century Russian formal wear the men wore white tie with black waistcoats and shawl collars on their tailcoats. I don't know if they researched this and it was accurate or if it was out of a costume designers imagination.

I don't know much about when shawl collars first appeared on tailcoats but I do know that in the U.S. black waistcoats were often worn with tailcoats until the early 1900s.

circa 1890

(more images at http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/evening.html)

 

[dhermann1]

Anyone have any suggestions where I can find a black waistcoat to wear with a 30's vintage shawl collar dinner jacket? I think I prefer black to white. How about a boiled shirt? Anywhere in NYC? (I would think there would be SOME place, right?)

 

[scotrace]

Straight collar. Interesting. And are those plain buttons (left)?

And that ad has to be the work of David Ogilvy.

 

[Josephine]

Yep, the web site is my pet project. I am currently in the process of revising the whole thing to add information I've discovered in the year since I first started posting the various sections and to also create a more consistent writing style across all the sections. With any luck it will be finished by the new year!

I am wanting to get my husband a dinner suit, so I was looking around your site to learn more. Now my brain hurts. So much information!

 

[Bugsy]

!!

Excellent pictures and wonderful references.

There have been discussions in several threads about the particulars for evening wear so I thought I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢d spend some time rummaging through my closet and put together a primer on evening clothes. For some of you this is all old hat but there seems to be a demand. (In any case, it gives me a chance to dig out all my evening clothes and dress up!)

THE BASICS

Evening wear refers to the formal clothes you wear after 6:00 p.m. This is what most people today think of as ?¢‚Ǩ?ìformal wear?¢‚Ǩ?. The basic distinction is usually referred to by the colour of the bowtie: white tie and black tie.

White Tie

This means you wear a tailcoat that comes down to your waist and is cut in a straight line to your hips. The tails then drop down to the middle of your knees. It should have silk or grosgrain facings on the lapel and a prominent stripe down the side of the leg (more on that later). This is correctly worn with a stiff-fronted shirt with a detachable collar, a stiff wing-tip collar, a white waistcoat and a white bowtie. The front of the coat should completely cover the bottom of the waistcoat. You don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t want a little band of white around your tummy! Shirt studs and cufflinks should be white (some small decoration is allowed but it must be very understated.) The socks are black and the shoes can be either black patent leather or very highly polished, very plain black leather (no wing tips, no punching, an undecorated toe cap is the standard)

For an excellent, in-depth discussion of tails, see this article in the London Lounge

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5526


Black Tie

This means you wear what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s usually called a tuxedo jacket today (many people in the 30s and 40s disapproved of using the word ?¢‚Ǩ?ìtuxedo?¢‚Ǩ?; the correct term is ?¢‚Ǩ?ìdinner jacket?¢‚Ǩ?). A single breasted jacket is considered more formal than a double breasted jacket. Peak lapels are the most formal, a shawl collar comes next and the notched lapel is ?¢‚Ǩ?ìan abomination?¢‚Ǩ? (according to some, me included!!). Lapels should again be faced and the stripe down the side of the leg is less prominent than that of tails. Midnight blue is a fully permissible option.

The dinner jacket must be worn with a black bowtie. Beyond that, there is more flexibility. The waistcoat may be black or white. The white waistcoat is worn with the same stiff shirt and collar as the tails; the black waistcoat may be worn with either a wingtip collar or a fold-over collar. A cummerbund was considered very informal. A cummerbund should be worn with the pleats opening upwards.
In the mid-30s, the white waistcoat was considered more formal. By the 40s, white and black waistcoats were regarded as being of equal formality. Same choice of shoes and socks as with white tie.

White Dinner Jacket

The white dinner jacket was designed for hot weather and tropical climates. It follows the same rules as the black dinner jacket but should not be worn in the winter in a cold climate. It is considered one step down in formality from the black dinner jacket and was considered a prime companion for the cummerbund (which is generally cooler than a waistcoat). An interesting note about white dinner jackets is that they may have self-faced lapels. This means that there is no silk on the lapels and the jacket actually looks like a regular jacket. Very rarely, black dinner jackets had self faced lapels, too. IF the jacket has self faced lapels, the trousers should have no stripe down the side.

 

[Bugsy]

!!!!!!!

I'm so glad you didn't show pre-tied ties.

Smaller details

Shirts

The stiff fronted shirt (also known as a ?¢‚Ǩ?ìboiled shirt?¢‚Ǩ?) should have an inset bosom of either pique or linen that is starched to a cardboard like stiffness; SINGLE cuffs (NOT a folded, French cuff) that are also starched stiff and a band collar. If there is a little tab with a button hole at the bottom of the bosom, this is intended to be buttoned to either your trouser button or your underwear button to keep your shirt in place.

A really good shirt will also have a loop at the back UNDER the band collar. This is to thread your tie through so it won?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t ride up and be visible over the back of your collar.

Soft shirts usually have pleats, a fold over collar and French cuffs. This is really what you want to wear with a white dinner jacket when the weather is hot; it's a much more comfortable shirt in hot weather. However, A stiff shirt is perfectly acceptable.

Evening shirts require studs. Tails should be worn with very small, white shirt studs and white cufflinks. A dinner jacket may be worn with either black or white studs and cufflinks. Studs and cufflinks should complement each other, but don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t need to match

A brief word on collar buttons (being brief is hard for me as I have a bit of a passion for collar buttons and could go on at great length about them). Front collar buttons are long; back collar buttons are squat. You should never see the back collar button above the collar of the jacket but this is difficult, even with the most impeccably tailored jacket. To this end, it is worth while finding a back collar button that has a mother of pearl end and wearing it backwards. See the picture. This means that if the jacket rides down for a moment, the world will not be offended by the glint of brass.


Ties

This segues very nicely into ties. The most ignored rule today is that the band of the bowtie should never be seen above the back collar, either! This is why the really good shirts have a loop BELOW the collar. From behind, all you should see is shirt collar (and lots of it?¢‚Ǩ‚Äùas much as you can show!)

When worn with a wingtip collar, the ends of the bowtie should meet the ends of the wings or be just a bit shorter. The tips of the wingtip collar should go BEHIND the bowtie.

Black bowties should match the lapel facings; white bowties should math the fabric of either the waistcoat or the shirt front (if you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re really rich and having them made to order, get shirt front, waistcoat and bowtie all in the same fabric)

Bowties are classified as either one-enders or two-enders. Both are acceptable and the choice is based solely on your own preference (or what you can find). The shape of the bowtie changed frequently during the 30s and 40s and was strictly a whim of fashion. In the picture, I have shown examples of a white, thistle shaped two-ender; a black, bat wing two-ender, and a white, butterfly one-ender. Pre-tied bowties did exist at this time but I would never allow one in my house so I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t have an example to show you, sorry.

Waistcoat

There are only tow ?¢‚Ǩ?ìrules?¢‚Ǩ? for waistcoats. The first is that, with tails, the front of the coat should cover the bottom of the waistcoat. The second is that ALL buttons on an evening waistcoat are to be buttoned. You don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t leave the bottom button undone!

Beyond that, your waistcoat is also a matter of personal taste. They are usually backless but don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t have to be. There can be points on the bottom; rounded points or a straight cut. They can be single or double breasted. They can have lapels or not.

With either white or black tie, the waistcoat studs on a white waistcoat can be either white or dark. A proper white waistcoat will take studs. if you buy one that has buttons sewn on, check the inside of the right side to see if there is a little flap. People often sew buttons on, not realizing that they are designed for studs. Black waistcoats take black studs or buttons (buttons are more common on these)

As stated earlier, the cummerbund is a less formal replacement for the waistcoat and the pleats are worn opening up. There may be a ticket pocket or there may not. They should be black! (Burgundy was a possible alternative in the late 40s)

Double breasted jackets are worn without a waistcoat or cummerbund.

Trousers

Trousers have a stripe down the side (unless the jacket lapels are self-faced). With tails, the stripe is more prominent. This usually means that it is a double stripe but this is not the only option. It was also fully acceptable to have a wide single stripe (about one inch). The dinner jacket trousers have a single, narrower stripe. The stripe can be braid or grosgrain ribbon. This is a distinction that was waning by the end of the 40s. After the war, it was considered a distinction only worth maintaining if you wore your evening clothes a lot.

Another distinction with trousers for tails is that, on really well made trousers, the side seam was angled so it followed the line of the tails as they rose from the knee. This allowed the wearer to put his hands in his pockets without disturbing the tails.

Black trousers are, of course, the norm (or midnight blue, if everything else matches) but in the 30s, white trousers were worn with white dinner jackets and, interestingly, a black dinner jacket could be worn with white trousers as an alternative to the black trousers/white jacket look.

Shoes

Shoes are black (white with white trousers). Two tone shoes were never worn with evening clothes. The most formal shoe is the patent leather pump with grosgrain bows (see picture). Other acceptable options are a patent leather oxford (with no decoration) or a plain black, cap toe oxford (also in picture). To be really proper, you should use flat, silk shoelaces (if you can find them!)

 

[Bugsy]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a great look!!!!

A great style and a great actor.