Formal Wear Primer

[Marc Chevalier]

Excuse me?

I don't see how any of this relates to ethnicity as it's simply a matter or tradition and occupation...

Avedwards, it's possible that Fifty150 was attempting to be cheeky. (Adding a cheeky emoticon would have helped.) Seen thus, your earlier statement could be read as "White disc jockeys being acceptable for musicians in this country." What DocMustang said...

 

[Guttersnipe]

That exchange was hilarious!

 

[AntonAAK]

Excuse me?

I simply was referring to the fact that white coloured dinner jackets are not usually worn within the UK as they're considered summer wear, and since the UK has a relatively temperate climate tradition dictates that a black dinner jacket is worn all year round, unlike the US or the tropics where a white dinner jacket can be worn.

Tradition be damned. I happily wear my white DJ* in the summer if I feel like it. I also wear brown in town and I now feel moved to fasten the bottom button on my waistcoat just to be contrary. We have too many rules.

Anton
* Dinner Jacket.

 

[draws]

Please, Gentlemen. Let's move on.

 

[avedwards]

I understand the confusion now, and in future I will never again use the abbreviation "DJ" and always refer to it as a "dinner jacket" .

However my point remains that it is both traditional and practical for the musicians of the London Symphony Orchestra to wear white dinner jackets rather than ill fitting and incorrect white tie. Ultimately that isn't a major issue though as their playing is superb and that's what matters more than how they look.

Tradition be damned. I happily wear my white DJ* in the summer if I feel like it. I also wear brown in town and I now feel moved to fasten the bottom button on my waistcoat just to be contrary. We have too many rules.

We do have too many rules. I wouldn't wear a white dinner jacket but I wouldn't blame you for doing so in summer. I wear a linen suit in summer when it's warm enough since it looks a lot better than being sweaty in a wool suit. The "no brown in town rule" probably just means "no tweed in town" since brown shoes can be worn with "city" suits and "city" suits themselves existed in brown back when these rules were actually followed.

 

[AntonAAK]

We do have too many rules. I wouldn't wear a white dinner jacket but I wouldn't blame you for doing so in summer.

I possibly do so because my only black dinner jacket is a thick barathea double breasted model (a bespoke item made in 1960) which would get very warm. But I also think the white one looks good and enjoy wearing it. I had no idea that it was not the 'done thing' to wear it in the UK. I would even go so far as to confess that many years ago when I first bought it I didn't know that it was summer wear only and wore it on New Years Eve. *Cringe* How are people supposed to know these things? They should join this forum and get themselves educated, that's what I did.

The "no brown in town rule" probably just means "no tweed in town" since brown shoes can be worn with "city" suits and "city" suits themselves existed in brown back when these rules were actually followed.

Probably true although it is far less common to see British men wear brown shoes with grey or blue suits than it is in the USA or on the Continent.

 

[Rathdown]

Probably true although it is far less common to see British men wear brown shoes with grey or blue suits than it is in the USA or on the Continent.

I suspect that may be down to the fact that until quite recently (in sartorial terms, at any rate) most men in the United Kingdom only had one pair of decent shoes, and these would have been black. And why black, instead of brown? Because brown shoes tend to show stains more readily than black shoes, which would make them less suitable for dressy occasions.

 

[avedwards]

I possibly do so because my only black dinner jacket is a thick barathea double breasted model (a bespoke item made in 1960) which would get very warm. But I also think the white one looks good and enjoy wearing it. I had no idea that it was not the 'done thing' to wear it in the UK. I would even go so far as to confess that many years ago when I first bought it I didn't know that it was summer wear only and wore it on New Years Eve. *Cringe* How are people supposed to know these things? They should join this forum and get themselves educated, that's what I did.

I don't think it was ever a proper rule not to wear white dinner jackets over here, just an unwritten convention which came about because of the fact that white dinner jackets were invented in America and were a trend never taken up this side of the Atlantic. My dinner jacket is single breasted and made of a medium weight wool so I can wear it in summer, especially since it's eveningwear and not daywear, but in your case I can see why you'd go for the white dinner jacket.

Probably true although it is far less common to see British men wear brown shoes with grey or blue suits than it is in the USA or on the Continent.

True, but the fact that brown pinstripe suits existed and were quite common in the Golden Era suggests brown could be worn in the city, as pinstripes only really appropriate in the city. Personally I wear brown shoes with my grey or blue suits whenever I feel like it because it looks good. The grey/blue suit with brown shoe combination has always been acceptable (even if a US/Continental trend) and definitely isn't a country combination, therefore brown must be acceptable in town .

 

[Matt_the_chap]

White dinner jackets, as far as I'm aware, have their taboo stem from waiters.

Whilst I don't know how accurate the moment is (and I know it's a mess jacket but I imagine similar things apply), when Bertie states that 'young women were trying to catch his eye' in the Granada Jeeves and Wooster television series, Jeeves imagines that they might've thought him to be the waiter. I suppose it comes down to people not wanting to look like the staff, which seems to be a much bigger thing here than in America what with our traditional institution of domestic service even in lower middle class homes.

 

[Qirrel]

White dinner jackets, as far as I'm aware, have their taboo stem from waiters.

Whilst I don't know how accurate the moment is (and I know it's a mess jacket but I imagine similar things apply), when Bertie states that 'young women were trying to catch his eye' in the Granada Jeeves and Wooster television series, Jeeves imagines that they might've thought him to be the waiter. I suppose it comes down to people not wanting to look like the staff, which seems to be a much bigger thing here than in America what with our traditional institution of domestic service even in lower middle class homes.

I believe the dispute between Jeeves and Wooster concerns a white mess jacket, not a regular dinner jacket.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

The white dinner jacket is bad, but the mess jacket is even worse!

To be honest, I actually like mess jacket, especially with gilt buttons and epaulettes.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Tomasso]

The white dinner jacket is bad....

Yes, it has even driven some men to drink.....

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Waiters wore white.

Non-waiters in evening dress wore slightly darker cream.

It's a subtle difference, but was detectable to (and detected by) Golden Era etiquette police.

 

[Guttersnipe]

My grandpa was once mistaken for a bellman while wearing his mess jacket (medals and all). He was waiting for the valet to bring around his car on New Years Eve in front the hotel he was staying in. He was Lt. Col. in the USAF at the time . . .

 

[scotrace]

I am appearing in a production of Lend Me a Tenor. In the second act, I wear a white tie. For the dress rehearsal, it hadn't arrived. So I wore a vintage tailcoat and trousers owned by the costume designer as we are the same size. It was a really wonderful thing to behold and wear. He had to help me into the tailcoat. It fit perfectly. And then the rented one came. Two sizes too big, shiny, lightweight. Awful. Night and day.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

I found an interesting photo of Maurice Ravel with his friends (including George Gershwin on far right) on his birthday party:

Note the feet of Ravel - he is either wearing white socks or no socks. Which, do you think, is more probable?

Best regards, Dr

 

[LoveMyHats2]

I own a cream Lanvin silk and wool blend single breasted dinner jacket. It is worn with slightly wider legged pleated black tux trousers, white tux shirt, black studs, black cufflinks, and an off white bow tie that has a very subtle black plaid pattern to it. I personally think it looks very sharp, and will wear a black fedora, and black long overcoat with it, when it is cooler out.

There are some events I will wear this attire to, and have worn it when going out to places like the Detroit Art Museum. I like the diversity it affords me if I desire to be a bit more dressed than a mere black tux, a bit more "colorful".

 

[dnjan]

I would have thought that if it were cool enough for an overcoat, it would be a bit late in the season for a cream-coloured dinner jacket.

Unless, of course, you are bringing the overcoat for the comfort of your date at the end of the evening.

 

[Rathdown]

I found an interesting photo of Maurice Ravel with his friends (including George Gershwin on far right) on his birthday party:

Note the feet of Ravel - he is either wearing white socks or no socks. Which, do you think, is more probable?

Best regards, Dr

Possibly white, although light blue, canary yellow, and even pink evening hose were not all that uncommon amongst the gentlemen of the artsy set in the 20s and 30s....

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Thank you! I was very upset with the rule of not breaking the dark line of legs in evening dress because I like white socks, white spats and boots with white uppers, so knowing that they were worn with evening wear in 20's really cheered me up.

Best regards, Dr