Formal Wear Primer

[MarkIsTheCleaner]

In 1913, as it is today, Full Dress was still morning coat and bold striped pants. Though by the 20th century, undress was more common during the day than it was in the 19th century.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

The colour of neckwear can be incorrect in the caricature.

Actually, I believe that the only real Full Dress is white tie and morning dress is its daytime equivalent. My point was that the colour scheme and the context suggests that it is an evening attire, while the morning coat is used only for daywear. Nevertheless, I like this outfit.

By the way, I think that I saw a photograph of Prince Philip dressed in white tie paired with a morning coat. I looked for that picture, but unfortunately I did not succeed.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Paul Roerich]

Finally...an explanation of why white waistcoats began to be worn with black dinner jackets (as opposed to evening tails) in the 1920s.


"Up to 1919, this combination had not been seen in either England or America, but following World War I, with nearly all Europe mourning its dead, the Prince of Wales came to feel that anything he could do to partially relieve the monotony of black would be well worthwhile. Thus, he substituted the white waistcoat. Others followed his lead: King Alfonso of Spain, for instance, and well-dressed Americans who were frequent visitors to London -- men like Anthony Drexel Biddle and William Goadby Loew. Soon it spread to the U.S., and by the middle and late '20s, black evening waistcoats were seldom seen on our better-dressed men."


From here: http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/influence_of_the_duke_of_windsor_on_mens_fashion_pdf

 

[Tomasso]

Finally...an explanation of why white waistcoats began to be worn with black dinner jackets (as opposed to evening tails) in the 1920s.

That explanation appeared in this thread many, many pages back.

 

[Paul Roerich]

That explanation appeared in this thread many, many pages back.

It did? Good. Then consider this an alternative to hunting down and bumping up a long-buried post. And for some reason, Midnight Blue hasn't included it in the "History: Jazz Age" section of his otherwise thorough 'Black Tie Guide' website.

 

[dhermann1]

We've kicked the idea of turning this thread into a forum of its own, with multiple themed threads, but I guess there was too much involved. So I guess you're doomed to page though the many many pages already here. They're actually kind of fun.

 

[Chasseur]

Just stumbled across a 1932 dated three piece black tie rig, un smoking en francais, in very nice condition and almost my size. It has a very 1920s feel too it flat trousers with back waist adjuster, fabric covered buttons on the waistcoat.

Made by M. Guyon in Montparnasse for a Mario Bettencourt (I think...). M. Bettencourt was my size but more rotund shall we say, shoulders and chest were great, but the trousers and the waistcoat had to come in a little.

It will look better with some final tweaking and of course with a marcella shirt, attached collar and pointed bow tie.... More later when I get it together and have all my kit with me.

 

[VintageMerchantMariner]

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a "full backed" waistcoat these days? I've only ever seen them backless unless the article in question is in fact an antique itself. I'm sure if you go to the most expensive of tailors or suit makers you could get anything you wanted but does anyone still make a reasonably priced, decently produced full-backed waistcoat?

Having a backless waistcoat hanging around your neck doesn't really make sense to me. If it's going to look like a vest, why should it not be a vest? Why have some facade of a thing only there for display? A backless waistcoat to me is the equivalent of a "dickie" turtleneck, which we all know are quite ridiculous things. If you're going to do away with what other people can't see then why bother with the whole thing in the first place?

 

[Tomasso]

Having a backless waistcoat hanging around your neck doesn't really make sense to me. If it's going to look like a vest, why should it not be a vest?

Unlike with a lounge suit, with semi-formal and formal dress the jacket is NEVER to be removed in public so there is no need for the waistcoat to have a back.

 

[Chasseur]

Most of my vintage formal wear waistcoats are backless actually. A big advantage to them is that they do keep you a little cooler at an event. Generally I find most events you wear formal wear too tend to have large numbers of people and tend to be warm inside. Could just be my experience though.

 

[dnjan]

Both of my formal waistcoats have backs, and I have never noticed that the backs made them too hot.
And I agree with the sentiment concerning backless waistcoats - I don't like them.

 

[Tomasso]

Most of my vintage formal wear waistcoats are backless actually. A big advantage to them is that they do keep you a little cooler at an event.

Leonard Bernstein would get so overheated when conducting that he would wear a backless shirt as well as backless waistcoat.

 

[Chowderhouse]

Both of my formal waistcoats have backs, and I have never noticed that the backs made them too hot.

Remember that men used to wear white tie and tails to balls. They were expected to waltz at these balls, and waltzing on and off for hours in a crowded room, in a time before air conditioning existed, made men feel hot and sweaty. Any relief was welcome, and backless waistcoats offered some.

 

[filfoster]

Leonard Bernstein would get so overheated when conducting that he would wear a backless shirt as well as backless waistcoat.

Custom-made and useless for the thrift store, I suppose....

 

[dhermann1]

Funny you should mention Lenny. I've always been annoyed with intermission feaures on classical events on PBS, where they show you the performers yapping about nothing in particular, ever since the very first Live From Lincoln Center back in the 60s. They showed Leonard Bernsteion chit chatting with Jackie Kennedy. He was POURING sweat, and all he could say was, "Boy, I'm all sweated up!". Brilliant.

 

[Chowderhouse]

Last night's Al Smith Dinner. A wonderful, witty event which has been humanizing wooden presidential candidates since Eisenhower in 1952. But enough about that, let's talk about the superficial stuff: look at the appearance of all the white tie outfits. Big fail in many respects. Barely-starched shirtfronts, low hanging vests, low rise pants, unstarched low wing collars and turndown collars, and adjustable hook-on pretied bow ties. Empty breast pockets with no white handkerchiefs. American flag pins instead of a white carnation or a red Legion d'Honneur ribbon.

Some of the older guy must have attended cotillion school when they were kids, so they should know better. Oh well. The last American president to wear white tie perfectly was Truman, though Nixon, Ford and Reagan came close. Eisenhower wore shiny mohair/silk tails: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pic...-Queen-Elizabeth-II-in-pictures.html?image=10

vs.

A white tie getup should look like Max Raabe's below. The presidential candidates could do as Max does and soberly forgo the white carnation. They could also display their pocket handkerchiefs more discreetly than Max does.

 

[Espee]

Gracie Allen did a joke about her brother leading an orchestra, but only being able to afford the back half of a tuxedo (the audience view.)
It turned out okay, except that he caught cold from standing in front of the wind instruments.

 

[Chowderhouse]

Very recent white tie and tails, done right.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

I almost want to conjecture that one of the myriad reasons no one wears black or white tie anymore is that everyone looks so awful in both. Most men I encounter in modern, hap-hazard formalwear (at Masonic events, etc.) actually look MORE debonaire in a decent suit — which is sad. All of the aforementioned details that have disappeared from average, modern formalwear (stiff shirt fronts, tall detachable collars, high-rise trousers and waistcoats, proper accoutrements) are what make the look worthwhile. The human race is a despicable, loathsome mudslide of futility.

 

[VintageMerchantMariner]

Wow, talk about low hanging waistcoats! Some of them have a good few inches going there! They should really be embarrassed. It's a damn shame the American public doesn't know the difference, otherwise those clowns would have very rightfully been red-faced!