Formal Wear Primer

[Tomasso]

I was in a wedding several years ago in which the men in the wedding party wore black tie. We all owned tuxedos, but the bride's mother insisted that we rent matching tuxedos. I thought that was silly. Not only was that an unnecessary expense I had to pay, but my tuxedo was a lot nicer than the rental tux. And no one would have ever known if we had worn our own clothes.

I've been there boy. You can't reason with these wedding planners.

 

[Chasseur]

We all owned tuxedos, but the bride's mother insisted that we rent matching tuxedos.

Ah yes had that happen before. I've a whole closet of formal wear: white tie, a couple of black tie rigs, a couple of vintage morning dress outfits, etc. Old high school buddy was getting married during the day, and the bride made me rent a really bad tuxedo with a matching polyester baby blue waistcoat and clip on bow tie. Oh it was bad... and shiney...

 

[anon`]

As far as I am aware since the Edwardian times (when dinner jackets became more common) they could be worn with white waistcoats and the same shirt used for white tie. In the 1930s the white waistcoat with black tie faded out of fashion but always remained acceptable. The dinner jacket (according to films of the era) could have peaked, shawl or notched lapels, unless you don't believe in the latter being appropriate. Peaked would seem the most appropriate though since it is the most formal and therefore the best match for such a formal accessory.

Quite correct. The white waistcoat, while no longer a popular option, is just as acceptable as a black waistcoat with black tie, as is the wing- or imperial-collared, boiled shirt. The only thing, aside from the jacket, which must be changed from white to black tie is, oddly enough, the colour of the tie

 

[Richard Warren]

Trouser stripes?

 

[dnjan]

Ah yes had that happen before. I've a whole closet of formal wear: white tie, a couple of black tie rigs, a couple of vintage morning dress outfits, etc. Old high school was getting married during the day, and the bride made me rent a really bad tuxedo with a matching polyester baby blue waistcoat and clip on bow tie. Oh it was bad... and shiney...

I think I would have been tempted to change into something decent for the reception ...

 

[Chasseur]

what is the name of that feature on dinner jackets for the closure - two buttons attached by a long string? They can be worn closed normally or with buttons through both sides of the jacket.

Yep that's a link front. Its pretty common on blazer and suit jackets in India actually.

 

[boushi_mania]

Trouser stripes?

In the US, at least, one braid is acceptable in both white and black tie. It's more complicated elsewhere...

 

[Lokar]

In the US, at least, one braid is acceptable in both white and black tie. It's more complicated elsewhere...

I was under the impression that even in the US, if you had one stripe on your trousers, it had to be wider with white tie. Even if that's not the case, however, you would have to have your black tie black waistcoat, dinner jacket, tailcoat and trousers all made at once (to prevent the use of a different bolt of cloth, or a different source of satin or grosgrain, and having the items not match) - and if you can afford that, you can probably afford a second pair of trousers.

 

[Tomasso]

All the RTW White Tie rigs that I've seen in the U.S. have had trousers with two stripes. That said, most of the makers were EU, exceptions being Brooks Brothers, Oxxford and Paul Stuart.

 

[Orgetorix]

My Hickey Freeman Custom dress suit from 1961 has a single stripe.

 

[Lokar]

Speaking of white tie, what do you make of this?





It appears to be a Victorian predecessor to the modern tailcoat. It's small (child sized), and has some things we still associate white tie (tails, double stripes on the trousers). However, as you can see, the front gets buttoned, the waistcoat is black, the lapels are cut from a separate cloth. The tails are also cut slightly differently.

I was thinking of buying it for the sake of curiosity, but didn't. If anyone is interested, I could probably buy it on your behalf and post it (although Swedish postage is on the high side). I can also return and take measurements, etc.

 

[David V]

By the Victorian era, the evening tail coat did not button. This looks like a "fashion" coat. The pants are modern manufacture. with the braces buttons on the outside it may be from the early 30's(??)

 

[Lokar]

The feel of the coat itself, the wool, the hand-stitched silk buttons, etc., felt very Victorian (I own a few Victorian items of clothing, and plenty of 20s-30s formalwear). However, I didn't really check the trousers, and they may have been cut from another bolt at a later date.

Seems like a strange "fashion" coat, though. The lapels are very Victorian in influence, and the cloth seems, to me at least, to feel older than what I've seen used in all formalwear post-Victorian in Sweden.

It's possible that a coat was cut down heavily, hence it being in a child's size, I suppose. That, or the fact that I'm in Sweden. I've looked through plenty of old photos of Swedes, and even in the Victorian era, they wore formal clothes that are a bit "off" for someone used to Anglo-American dress.

 

[David V]

Still not sure that it's Victorian. It does have the look of a cut down frock coat. As to why and for what purpose...anyone's guess.

 

[Lokar]

Yeah, after thinking it's definitely a cut down frock coat. The trousers are clearly a later addition - possibly by the person that cut the coat, possibly by a later person. The original frock coat is, of course, likely Victorian or Edwardian, but who knows when the coat was cut. If the trousers were added by somebody in the thrift store, the cutting could have been done this year, even.

 

[Chasseur]

I posted this in the "What are you wearing today forum" but since we are talking about formal wear here is my white tie rig:

 

[Tomasso]

Well done!

 

[Chasseur]

Thanks!

 

[Richard Warren]

I recently ordered from Brooks Brothers a double breasted dinner jacket on which the fold for the lapel was quite a bit higher than the buttons.

I then saw the quoted picture of Bogart which seems to have the same feature/quirk.

Anybody have any ideas on whether this is a really cool stylistic touch or a manufacturing defect (in my jacket, not of course Bogart's).

 

[boushi_mania]

I recently ordered from Brooks Brothers a double breasted dinner jacket on which the fold for the lapel was quite a bit higher than the buttons.

I then saw the quoted picture of Bogart which seems to have the same feature/quirk.

Anybody have any ideas on whether this is a really cool stylistic touch or a manufacturing defect (in my jacket, not of course Bogart's).

I've seem the same sort of thing, and have been wondering as well. At first I thought it might be a sign of a rolled lapel vs. one that's been creased flat, but I've also seen the same phenomenon on jackets that were by no means well-made...

And on a different subject, is there a set, proper distance between the buttons on the back of a tailcoat, or is it based purely on the cut (and the wearer's physique)?