Five Star Leather Jackets

[Aloysius]

You know I had two companies lie and defraud me and I see them travel constantly to some Islamic place or ritual what so ever posting Allah is great.

That's why I'm saying put the fear of God in them!

Being an honest merchant is an act of worship. If you're scamming people that's not a separate life from the one you're praying in!

 

[Eddiesuave]

Can confirm B-3 is a solid purchase when bought on SALE with the exception of the Russet Horsehide looking like characterless dull chocolate milk. I think Shawn needs to seriously revise their Russet HH’s top coat, needs to be a deeper red with a bit more shine to it. Maybe a mix of this and their Brandy would be more ideal. I’m hoping more grain will pop over time to match the shearling. But this a keeper for sure.

 

[spectre6000]

I'm working on my design submission, and trying to fine tune some of the details both in my head and on paper. Also now, IN paper.

I noticed in Shawn's post many many pages ago re: the factory tour that the pattern makers seem to be working with large sheets of paper. I have a huge roll for my 4yo to color on, so I stole some along with a few other art supplies.

I used my own measurements against the design I've cribbed from various historic and contemporary jackets. I didn't worry about making up the various discrete panels, because I'm really only worried about the one center panel.

One of the key design characteristics I'm aiming for is three dimensionality. @tmitchell59 was extremely gracious, and shared some photos and video with me of some of his incredible half belt collection, and the pleating in the backs of some of them really stood out to me. I essentially designed the back details around those pleats in order to get that three dimensional shape that mirrors the curvature of a/my spine. I did my best to get a photograph of the curvature in the paper (which I think is good, but my assistant is missing, so I'm sort of in a vacuum re: verification), but it refused to let go of the curvature of the roll it came from for the most part, so it's kind of hard to see in a two dimensional photo. Still, I think it looks pretty solid!

More importantly, it answers a handful of questions for me from a practical perspective. Intuitively, I thought there would need to be wedges cut out on the scale of a half inch or so, but in practice, it seems that whatever minimal amount of leather can be gathered in order to put a stitch through it is all that's required. I'm going to play with the length of the pleats a little as well to see how length affects curvature.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I'm working on my design submission, and trying to fine tune some of the details both in my head and on paper. Also now, IN paper.

I noticed in Shawn's post many many pages ago re: the factory tour that the pattern makers seem to be working with large sheets of paper. I have a huge roll for my 4yo to color on, so I stole some along with a few other art supplies.
View attachment 591583
View attachment 591584
View attachment 591585 I used my own measurements against the design I've cribbed from various historic and contemporary jackets. I didn't worry about making up the various discrete panels, because I'm really only worried about the one center panel.

One of the key design characteristics I'm aiming for is three dimensionality. @tmitchell59 was extremely gracious, and shared some photos and video with me of some of his incredible half belt collection, and the pleating in the backs of some of them really stood out to me. I essentially designed the back details around those pleats in order to get that three dimensional shape that mirrors the curvature of a/my spine. I did my best to get a photograph of the curvature in the paper (which I think is good, but my assistant is missing, so I'm sort of in a vacuum re: verification), but it refused to let go of the curvature of the roll it came from for the most part, so it's kind of hard to see in a two dimensional photo. Still, I think it looks pretty solid!

More importantly, it answers a handful of questions for me from a practical perspective. Intuitively, I thought there would need to be wedges cut out on the scale of a half inch or so, but in practice, it seems that whatever minimal amount of leather can be gathered in order to put a stitch through it is all that's required. I'm going to play with the length of the pleats a little as well to see how length affects curvature.

The two side gusset panels usually stays the same width from armhole down, only the front and back panels have controuring (V shape or whatever shape you want the look). The two side panels usually wrap around to the front a bit too if there is a lot of front contouring going on. Most 60s/70s and later patterns have this type of set up in my experience.

The vintage cutting (pre 40s) there is no contouring much going on in the front, and the front can look a big baggy and the back not big enough. Still they had cool designs.

Some one size taper guys do it from the side gussets.

The best of both worlds is to copy the vintage design but on more modernized contoured fitting blocks.

If you are gonna attempt pattern making, a tailors curve ruler is the best thing. Not expensive but it has the measurement readings in curve so you don't have to guess it on a regular ruler. As long as the two joining panels has the same linear length they will join seamlessly, no matter what the curve is. Tailors curve ruler is very handy tool.

I need to stop looking at my laptop and go cut the leather for the microscope... This weekend I promise...

 

[spectre6000]

Brilliant! Thank you! Could you give me an idea for the typical width of the side gusset panels? Is the wrapping even? As in, is the panel centered under the arm hole? @Canuck Panda

My wife has resurfaced. She sews and has a theater background with the costume making chops that come with that. She has corrected many things as well.

 

[spectre6000]

Well... My 4yo spent the night with grandparents last night, and needs a serious nap and some deprogramming. Simultaneously, my wife is very pregnant, and that combination has pretty much halted all forward progress as this is not something I can do solo as both engineer and subject. 4yo needs attention, and wife needs to rest.

To recap what happened this afternoon though, because I feel it's pertinent to this conversation. I learned a LOT. Wife broke out some sort of pattern making something, and had me cutting and taping a bunch of pieces of paper together until I had a pattern for half of the back of a bodice to fit to my measurements. The goal is not to make a pattern, but figure out the pleating measurements. Making the pseudo pattern aids in that though.

Given that Fivestar makes "flat" jackets, combined with the pattern making shop tour photos shared a while back, I THINK what's happening is they take whatever the pattern is they're starting with, adjust to size, put whatever details onto it, cut it out, add seam allowances, and sew it together. Flat to flat, and that's how we get to where we are.

I wouldn't really have the ability from 180° the other side of the planet and across the language barrier to communicate effectively how to trim curves and such to make the pattern three dimensional if I even knew how. Which I DO NOT. Compound curves, angles, etc. are just too complicated.

I CAN communicate pleats though. However long, at whatever angles, and/or however wide at the end. Simple numbers and dimensions that ARE easy to communicate. If I can get my three dimensionality solely from the pleats that center panel (pictured above), then the rest really doesn't matter, and plays nicely into the end result. This is not at all why the design I'm working on is like it is, just a happy accident.

So that's what I'm working on.

Meanwhile, the epiphany. Maybe....? I measured everything like crazy. Myself, a bunch of leather jackets, a bunch of non-leather jackets, etc. all using the methods and dimensions as suggested all over the place here and by Fivestar. This might be part of the problem. I was very careful about how I measured. Very systematic and meticulous with detailed notes. Those measurements don't work though. The specific example that best illustrates the point is shoulders. The pattern my wife had me assemble matched the collar on my t-shirt pretty much exactly, so that seems like a pretty solid starting point. From there, my measurements dictate the shoulder seam should be 6 1/2". That's a hard measurement to screw up, because it's a straight line in a pretty consistent spot. Except it's not necessarily in a consistent spot. Sometimes, it's dead center top of the shoulders, and sometimes it seems it's shifted forward slightly; a detail I didn't notice until looking back at photos. That same measurements dictate the tops of the sleeve seams are 19" apart. Drawing a line from the line comprising the previous measurement up to the collar dictates 2" of rise. This is completely duplicatable directly on my neck and shoulders. That just doesn't work though. Something about the three dimensional jacket flattened out on a table screws something up. Translating that to the pattern makes that not work like it seems like it should.

The pattern my wife made for me matches my tshirt collar surprisingly closely, and that seems like a reasonable approximation at least of the base of the collar of a jacket. From there, the pattern neatly matches the top center of my shoulders, which also happens to be a seam on my shirt. So far, so good. When I measure the collar rise though, it's not even close to the 2" rise that my notes say I should have... It's less. It's following the curves of my shoulders very well though...

The point is, there appears to be some sort of disconnect between the pattern making and the measurements of pre-existing jackets. I'm not sure what it is yet. Hopefully it clears up by the time I finish this pleat defining exercise.... I'm sharing this because there are people with a much better understanding of this than I have, and maybe someone can clear me up, or maybe this sparks an idea in someone... I dunno. Hopefully I'm able to get things figured out tomorrow before the week eats up all available bandwidth.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Brilliant! Thank you! Could you give me an idea for the typical width of the side gusset panels? Is the wrapping even? As in, is the panel centered under the arm hole? @Canuck Panda

My wife has resurfaced. She sews and has a theater background with the costume making chops that come with that. She has corrected many things as well.

It depends. I don't think it's how wide it should be but where it is in relationship to the front and back contouring panels.

Take this 5Star jacket I have for example, if I know what I know now then, I would ask for a different type of contouring:

And not use the elastic just regular cinch tab. Elastic gathers creates a puff right above it. And I think a single point yoke is the best complimenting look followed by a wide V taper contouring panel. There could also be an inch more V taper in the front panels so the side panels wraps around on the bottom too.

Another thing worth noting over and over again is that not to overspend at 5Star. Get in get out move on. There is a reason I haven't been a patron there for a while. While I don't have a problem with Shawn or what he does, I do agree it is easy to overspend there and feel burned out after a while. The biggest factor there is that Shawn says no to nothing. Or he says yes to everything. This Yes man approach may work in business to business relationships, but for personal relationships, in my experience, only works when there is both yes and nos. Too many yes is living in fantasy land, too many nos is living in hell, gotta be a mix of the two.

I would still say stick with premium goat with a wax finish. I salvation armied all my 5Star jackets except the ones where I sent him the leather and a few of the thicker goat ones. Also don't send him leather. It ends up costing a lot, and you can get a jacket done in the US. Been there done that. But I stand by the waxed goat. I think everyone has the best chance at getting a decent result from that leather.

Good luck.

 

[MrProper]

Well... My 4yo spent the night with grandparents last night, and needs a serious nap and some deprogramming. Simultaneously, my wife is very pregnant, and that combination has pretty much halted all forward progress as this is not something I can do solo as both engineer and subject. 4yo needs attention, and wife needs to rest.

To recap what happened this afternoon though, because I feel it's pertinent to this conversation. I learned a LOT. Wife broke out some sort of pattern making something, and had me cutting and taping a bunch of pieces of paper together until I had a pattern for half of the back of a bodice to fit to my measurements. The goal is not to make a pattern, but figure out the pleating measurements. Making the pseudo pattern aids in that though.

Given that Fivestar makes "flat" jackets, combined with the pattern making shop tour photos shared a while back, I THINK what's happening is they take whatever the pattern is they're starting with, adjust to size, put whatever details onto it, cut it out, add seam allowances, and sew it together. Flat to flat, and that's how we get to where we are.

I wouldn't really have the ability from 180° the other side of the planet and across the language barrier to communicate effectively how to trim curves and such to make the pattern three dimensional if I even knew how. Which I DO NOT. Compound curves, angles, etc. are just too complicated.

I CAN communicate pleats though. However long, at whatever angles, and/or however wide at the end. Simple numbers and dimensions that ARE easy to communicate. If I can get my three dimensionality solely from the pleats that center panel (pictured above), then the rest really doesn't matter, and plays nicely into the end result. This is not at all why the design I'm working on is like it is, just a happy accident.

So that's what I'm working on.

Meanwhile, the epiphany. Maybe....? I measured everything like crazy. Myself, a bunch of leather jackets, a bunch of non-leather jackets, etc. all using the methods and dimensions as suggested all over the place here and by Fivestar. This might be part of the problem. I was very careful about how I measured. Very systematic and meticulous with detailed notes. Those measurements don't work though. The specific example that best illustrates the point is shoulders. The pattern my wife had me assemble matched the collar on my t-shirt pretty much exactly, so that seems like a pretty solid starting point. From there, my measurements dictate the shoulder seam should be 6 1/2". That's a hard measurement to screw up, because it's a straight line in a pretty consistent spot. Except it's not necessarily in a consistent spot. Sometimes, it's dead center top of the shoulders, and sometimes it seems it's shifted forward slightly; a detail I didn't notice until looking back at photos. That same measurements dictate the tops of the sleeve seams are 19" apart. Drawing a line from the line comprising the previous measurement up to the collar dictates 2" of rise. This is completely duplicatable directly on my neck and shoulders. That just doesn't work though. Something about the three dimensional jacket flattened out on a table screws something up. Translating that to the pattern makes that not work like it seems like it should.

The pattern my wife made for me matches my tshirt collar surprisingly closely, and that seems like a reasonable approximation at least of the base of the collar of a jacket. From there, the pattern neatly matches the top center of my shoulders, which also happens to be a seam on my shirt. So far, so good. When I measure the collar rise though, it's not even close to the 2" rise that my notes say I should have... It's less. It's following the curves of my shoulders very well though...

The point is, there appears to be some sort of disconnect between the pattern making and the measurements of pre-existing jackets. I'm not sure what it is yet. Hopefully it clears up by the time I finish this pleat defining exercise.... I'm sharing this because there are people with a much better understanding of this than I have, and maybe someone can clear me up, or maybe this sparks an idea in someone... I dunno. Hopefully I'm able to get things figured out tomorrow before the week eats up all available bandwidth.

It's a shame, so much work and yet the result will only be a mediocre jacket at best.

 

[Eddiesuave]

I have D-96 Tanker Jacket. I’m not sure if it’s the correct name for the jacket, but it’s a matte flame retardant Nomex Jacket. It’s a very handsome jacket in person and I’ve had it for some time, but I’ve grown a little suspicious over Nomex’s toxicity. Not sure if I’m overthinking it, but I was thinking about having this redone by Five Star in Olive cotton, but I wanted to ask if anybody has a had any success with their cloth jackets, let alone a quilted version. I would be sending this one in to get it perfect.

PS: Not my pictures, I don’t have it at hand, but I will include fit pictures.

 

[Aloysius]

I have D-96 Tanker Jacket. I’m not sure if it’s the correct name for the jacket, but it’s a matte flame retardant Nomex Jacket. It’s a very handsome jacket in person and I’ve had it for some time, but I’ve grown a little suspicious over Nomex’s toxicity. Not sure if I’m overthinking it, but I was thinking about having this redone by Five Star in Olive cotton, but I wanted to ask if anybody has a had any success with their cloth jackets, let alone a quilted version. I would be sending this one in to get it perfect.

PS: Not my pictures, I don’t have it at hand, but I will include fit pictures. View attachment 591740 View attachment 591741 View attachment 591742 View attachment 591751 View attachment 591752

They actually already do repros of a bunch of CWU jackets so I would just order one of those directly.

 

[Eddiesuave]

They actually already do repros of a bunch of CWU jackets so I would just order one of those directly.

Where at? Looking for a cotton canvas or alternative CVC to avoid Nomex when I can, not a fan of the CWU’s shiny material.

 

[bn1966]

Where at? Looking for a cotton canvas or alternative CVC to avoid Nomex when I can, not a fan of the CWU’s shiny material.

I am considering getting an MA-1 made by 5* in nylon. They already make these but we’re up for a custom one if I send them my best fitting MA-1 jacket to base it on. Only luck I’ve had with custom 5* was getting them to clone an existing jacket. On a side note I’ve got a couple of Alpha CWU jackets that Alpha made in nylon for the Civvy sector.

 

[thor]

I am considering getting an MA-1 made by 5* in nylon. They already make these but we’re up for a custom one if I send them my best fitting MA-1 jacket to base it on. Only luck I’ve had with custom 5* was getting them to clone an existing jacket. On a side note I’ve got a couple of Alpha CWU jackets that Alpha made in nylon for the Civvy sector.

Five Star made a B-15D for me that was simply incredible. They produced the 1950’s silver-sage color material perfectly. I highly recommend them for their textile jackets (I also have a Navy 37J1, a B-10 and a B-15; all of them excellent reproductions).

 

[spectre6000]

It's a shame, so much work and yet the result will only be a mediocre jacket at best.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's a fun project. I also spent an awful lot of time and effort building a 100% tube analog phono preamp from scratch. I spent a lot of time making a number of guitars from scratch. I spend a lot of time restoring old watches. I spent a lot of time making my 100 year old house awesome and modernized in just the right way. Some things are worth working for. Beats video games or watching sports.

I'm doing my best to understand how it works, what goes wrong and why, and how to avoid those pitfalls. I won't pull the trigger if I don't feel confident in the result, and I'm hedging my bets with time a little extra cash in the form of leather samples and a prototype jacket. Also, I've said it before, but I have the advantage of a high degree of ignorance, a certain stoic expectation and outlook, and I'm a pretty happy guy on the whole, so I'm quite likely to be happy with the result even if it's only mediocre by the standards of many of the more experienced people here. Worst case scenario, it's a gateway jacket. A cheap $/hr pastime.

 

[AHP91]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's a fun project. I also spent an awful lot of time and effort building a 100% tube analog phono preamp from scratch. I spent a lot of time making a number of guitars from scratch. I spend a lot of time restoring old watches. I spent a lot of time making my 100 year old house awesome and modernized in just the right way. Some things are worth working for. Beats video games or watching sports.

I'm doing my best to understand how it works, what goes wrong and why, and how to avoid those pitfalls. I won't pull the trigger if I don't feel confident in the result, and I'm hedging my bets with time a little extra cash in the form of leather samples and a prototype jacket. Also, I've said it before, but I have the advantage of a high degree of ignorance, a certain stoic expectation and outlook, and I'm a pretty happy guy on the whole, so I'm quite likely to be happy with the result even if it's only mediocre by the standards of many of the more experienced people here. Worst case scenario, it's a gateway jacket. A cheap $/hr pastime.

Good luck in your project. I am of the opinion that with a little research (probably less time spent put into creating your first jacket) one can find a gently used jacket that will match or exceed your expectation with your five star. It would probably cost the same or less.

Of course, I have not ordered a five star myself, but have seen many people happy with results in the used market.

 

[MrProper]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's a fun project. I also spent an awful lot of time and effort building a 100% tube analog phono preamp from scratch. I spent a lot of time making a number of guitars from scratch. I spend a lot of time restoring old watches. I spent a lot of time making my 100 year old house awesome and modernized in just the right way. Some things are worth working for. Beats video games or watching sports.

I'm doing my best to understand how it works, what goes wrong and why, and how to avoid those pitfalls. I won't pull the trigger if I don't feel confident in the result, and I'm hedging my bets with time a little extra cash in the form of leather samples and a prototype jacket. Also, I've said it before, but I have the advantage of a high degree of ignorance, a certain stoic expectation and outlook, and I'm a pretty happy guy on the whole, so I'm quite likely to be happy with the result even if it's only mediocre by the standards of many of the more experienced people here. Worst case scenario, it's a gateway jacket. A cheap $/hr pastime.

It's perfectly ok to make a fun project out of it. I've done it umpteen times.
And if the leather was nice, I probably would have kept two or three jackets from 5*. And maybe the jackets are ok if you don't have any others, but if you have Horween, Vicenza and Badalassi in your wardrobe, which aren't worn enough anyway, then 5* jackets always get the short end of the stick.
And in the long run it's frustrating when you think with every attempt that you've really specified all the details and 5* screws up something new. The creativity of 5* to get things wrong seems limitless.
But to be fair, a 1:1 copy has become perfect.

 

[spectre6000]

I've explored the vintage route thoroughly. I don't fit modern off-the-rack, and I REALLY don't fit the much more limited options of vintage off-the-rack. I used to be shaped like a squatty triangle, but have become a bit more square in middle age. Very short with very broad shoulders and a pretty average waist. If I'm buying a dress shirt, I can either buy off the rack, then double the price in tailoring (typically cuffs, hem, and waist @$25/ea), or just get custom from the outset. It's either that, or clothes just fit poorly by any standard. Leather compounds that significantly due its mechanical properties and the cost of tailoring. If I bought an off the rack jacket and sent it to Dena (I think that's the name of the preferred leather tailor here), I'd be adding at least a few hundred dollars to my tab right off the bat. I haven't looked at her pricing, but I guarantee it's not going to be cheaper than the local guy, and there's two legs of shipping and insurance on top of that.

If I can get a halfway decent jacket from Fivestar (by my relatively low standards) for a halfway decent price (by my... relatively low? standards), I win. If I want something more or better, I'll have to pony up for more and better. Might go wool next time. Easier to work with. Who knows?

I'm hedging on the leather quality front by getting samples. As stated in the microscopy thread I've worked with leather a fair bit, albeit almost entirely thick, minimally processed cow and shearling in a different context. I know what I want. If I don't like the leather, I'm out $30.

If I get past that hurdle, I'm hedging on the fit front by getting a prototype jacket. I imagine there will be some slight adjustments required at that phase, but if I don't feel like it's going to work out, then I bail and I'm out $100. No big deal. If things are a go at that point, then I'm out whatever final cost, and I should have a pretty decent jacket to show for it.

In all 400 pages of this thread, the leather samples have been ordered a low single digit number of times (3 come to mind, but I could be forgetting one or two). I recall a prototype jacket has been ordered precisely once that's been documented here. The result of that particular jacket order were not documented, and when the poster requested feedback on the prototype jacket, very little, if any, was given. I'd tag the user to see if they're still around to weigh in, but it seems the server is busy mining bitcoin, and won't respond to let me do so...

Edit: @Webafile <= not a tag... Just won't work. That particular chain is back on pages 210/211 though if anyone wants to have a look. Sounded promising, but we never get resolution on that particular story line.

 

[tmitchell59]

@tmitchell59 was extremely gracious, and shared some photos and video with me of some of his incredible half belt collection,

Thank you, I am glad I could help.

 

[Aloysius]

Where at? Looking for a cotton canvas or alternative CVC to avoid Nomex when I can, not a fan of the CWU’s shiny material.

Ha, I'm the opposite. I wish Nomex still had that Nylon-like shine but it hasn't in recent decades.

I got a new-in-package (matte, looks like cotton twill) Nomex CWU for about $150. That seems like it would offer what you're looking for.

 

[El Marro]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's a fun project. I also spent an awful lot of time and effort building a 100% tube analog phono preamp from scratch. I spent a lot of time making a number of guitars from scratch. I spend a lot of time restoring old watches. I spent a lot of time making my 100 year old house awesome and modernized in just the right way. Some things are worth working for. Beats video games or watching sports.

I'm doing my best to understand how it works, what goes wrong and why, and how to avoid those pitfalls. I won't pull the trigger if I don't feel confident in the result, and I'm hedging my bets with time a little extra cash in the form of leather samples and a prototype jacket. Also, I've said it before, but I have the advantage of a high degree of ignorance, a certain stoic expectation and outlook, and I'm a pretty happy guy on the whole, so I'm quite likely to be happy with the result even if it's only mediocre by the standards of many of the more experienced people here. Worst case scenario, it's a gateway jacket. A cheap $/hr pastime.

I think you are going into this with the right mindset and it seems like for you the process is a big part of the fun. For that reason I think you are perfectly positioned to give Five Star a try. Even if the jacket is a failure, you will have had the opportunity to put your design skills to work and creating something just for you.
If the jacket is a failure, then I suggest you look to someone like Johnson Leather for your next one. They also offer a lot of leeway when it comes to designing your own jacket, but it will be based on one of their patterns, which are excellent, so it will be wearable and functional. They also offer a wide variety of hides which don’t smell like live goats nor toxic chemicals.
As a matter of fact, maybe you should just skip Five Star and go directly to Johnson Leather.