Film Noir?

[Anachronism]

I really hope this thread doesn't already exist, but I've seen so many parodies and heard so much about "film noir" from the 30s and 40s, and I was wondering what (if any) film noir movies are must-watch or just really good.

 

[Laura Chase]

I'm by no means an expert, but I know some people define film noir in terms of content and theme. Personally, I prefer to define it in terms of style, and in that manner, it comes very close to the German expressionist cinema.

For a noir in the first sense, The Maltese Falcon pops to mind straight away. It's a classic. Personally, I'm very fond of the book, but was a little bored by the movie.

For a noir in the second sense, stylistically, I think M - Eine Stadt sucht einen Mörder is a must-see. Even though this movie isn't American, and in that sense (I guess) could be excluded from the noir genre, I simply find it amazing in terms of style. Also, as a precursor for the entire genre, really.

 

[mike]

There are lots of must see Film Noirs. None of them were considered classics at the time as they were basically 40's b-movies. It wasn't until the French discovered them after WW2 and declared it a movement, did they get much spotlight. Double Indemnity is probably the most popular. Detour, Out of the Past, In a Lonely Place, Raw Deal, the Naked City, Touch of Evil are probably some of my favorites, but their are lots of really good ones!

The Lost One (aka Der Verlorene) directed by Peter Lorre in Germany in 1950 is absolutely worth tracking down. Consider it comparable to Laughton's classic Night of the Hunter!

Other European made films that can certainly seen as having noir touches are Carol Reed's the Third Man and Maurice Tourneur's the Devil's Hand.

Although as a genre it's definitely all American baby!

 

[Anachronism]

thanks.
I tried searching for this thread and found nothing.

Laura Chase--I actually watched the Maltese Falcon while doing my math homework today. I wasn't too thrilled by Mary Astor. I felt like she was a boring (both visually and in every other way) actress. Bogart was good though. I'll definitely check out the book once i'm done with this pile of books I got for Christmas

 

[mike]

I always felt that whether this was on purpose or not, film noir showed the underbelly of society that stayed out of fighting in WW2. When all the heroes are off fighting the good fight overseas, the home front is a country of criminals. Just one way of looking at it

 

[Lily Powers]

thanks.
I tried searching for this thread and found nothing.

Laura Chase--I actually watched the Maltese Falcon while doing my math homework today. I wasn't too thrilled by Mary Astor. I felt like she was a boring (both visually and in every other way) actress. Bogart was good though. I'll definitely check out the book once i'm done with this pile of books I got for Christmas

I felt the same way about Mary Astor the first time I saw "The Maltese Falcon" but have since grown to appreciate her work. Rita Hayworth and Ingrid Bergman were also considered for the role of Brigid, but now I like Mary Astor in it - she's not the cliched femme fatale. (She was actually pretty frisky in her off-screen life, with a notorious diary made public during a divorce trial in 1936, with very detailed descriptions of her affair.)

"DOA" (1950) is a good Noir-101 film - hapless everyman who has been poisoned and has 24-hours to find the guy who did it. Mostly filmed in San Francisco. And speaking of SF... the Castro Theatre hosts the Noir City Film Festival, beginning this Friday, 1/23/2009. Always great noir films and some rare ones not seen on TCM or available on DVD.

 

[skyvue]

None of them were considered classics at the time as they were basically 40's b-movies.

Mike, I have to disagree. Many films noir were not B movies, and many were greatly appreciated in their time (though they were not, as you correctly point out, yet called "film noir"). DOUBLE INDEMNITY, to name just one, was very much a "A" picture. So was THE MALTESE FALCON.

I could name many more.

 

[Feraud]

I always thought Mary Astor was miscast (or is it misused?) in The Maltese Falcon. The book is excellent and the movie is a literal word for word translation of the Hammett story. I've seen Mary Astor look great in other films but her character in this film is totally unbelievable as a femme fatale. Would anyone really fall for her dowdy feminine wiles?

To put these comments in context we have to remember there was quite a bit of studio interference to tone down the sexuality in the Maltese Falcon. And it shows.. There is slight reference to the fact that Sam Spade is having an affair with his partner's wife. To add insult to injury, when we see the wife, Iva Archer, she looks matronly enough to put the affair out of our minds and not sulley the character of our protagonist Spade.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the 1931 version, check it out. Overall it is not as impressive as the Huston version, Thelma Todd as Iva Archer is IT.

 

[Feraud]

This is a good Noir primer..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir

 

[scotrace]

Some great sets to start with here, along with discussions.

 

[bigshoe]

"The Asphalt Jungle." One of the best. Don't forget "The Big Sleep", Key Largo" all from the 40's and 50's
Tom

 

[David V]

I've always been a fan of 'Kansas City Confidential'

 

[skyvue]

Anachronism, you must, must, must see some of these movies in a theatre if you possibly can. I watch old movies all the time at home (Turner Classic Movies is the one network I could never do without), but to see them on a big screen with an appreciative audience -- the experience is vastly different.

And the more old movies you see, the more you'll get used to some of the variance in acting style and characterizations. Mary Astor had a long and storied career, beginning in silent pictures and working into the 1950s (at least). I think she does just fine in THE MALTESE FALCON; she's not a screen siren, but the mind games she plays with Bogart's Spade are psychological, not based merely on raw physical appeal (and I say that as one who loves Thelma Todd).

 

[Anachronism]

Anachronism, you must, must, must see some of these movies in a theatre if you possibly can. I watch old movies all the time at home (Turner Classic Movies is the one network I could never do without), but to see them on a big screen with an appreciative audience -- the experience is vastly different.

And the more old movies you see, the more you'll get used to some of the variance in acting style and characterizations. Mary Astor had a long and storied career, beginning in silent pictures and working into the 1950s (at least). I think she does just fine in THE MALTESE FALCON; she's not a screen siren, but the mind games she plays with Bogart's Spade are psychological, not based merely on raw physical appeal (and I say that as one who loves Thelma Todd).

Well, I'm not only judging her on her looks, but if the acting isn't there, at least a visually interesting and aesthetically pleasing actress has that going for her.

I didn't really get the idea that he fell for her mind games, which is why I didn't feel like the acting was there. And she would have been better looking had she simply had a more flattering hairstyle and maybe more interesting clothes (Bogart wears peaked lapels throughout the movie, and she looks somewhat slumpy in comparison).

 

[Feraud]

I wouldn't say Mary Astor didn't completely have "IT", but she didn't use what she has in a role that certainly called for it.

 

[scotrace]

I always thought Mary Astor was miscast (or is it misused?) in The Maltese Falcon. The book is excellent and the movie is a literal word for word translation of the Hammett story. I've seen Mary Astor look great in other films but her character in this film is totally unbelievable as a femme fatale. Would anyone really fall for her dowdy feminine wiles?

To put these comments in context we have to remember there was quite a bit of studio interference to tone down the sexuality in the Maltese Falcon. And it shows.. There is slight reference to the fact that Sam Spade is having an affair with his partner's wife. To add insult to injury, when we see the wife, Iva Archer, she looks matronly enough to put the affair out of our minds and not sulley the character of our protagonist Spade.

If you ever have the opportunity to see the 1931 version, check it out. Overall it is not as impressive as the Huston version, Thelma Todd as Iva Archer is IT.

Agreed on all points! I always wondered why Spade would fall for Mary Astor in that role, and why he would be having an affair with Iva as presented in the film. No sense on either counts and it's a weak spot in a great film.
CAVEAT: Astor was in the news at the time of the film for a very public scandalous affair, and audiences knew it. At the time it gave her much more cache as a femme fatale than we are able to see.

So, Feraud, who would we cast? Hayworth?

 

[Feraud]

So, Feraud, who would we cast? Hayworth?

Hayworth is a good choice but a less obvious but extremely convincing femme fatale would be Greer Garson.

I see the Astor scandal as equivalent to the Angelina Jolie-Brad Pitt-Jennifer Aniston fiasco...somehow newsworthy but not indicative of their respective acting talents. Ultimately these issues can help sell (or cast) movies. [huh]

 

[Flitcraft]

Here's a Good One For You, Ana Chronism...

Check out Out of the Past- with Robert Mitchum in the protagonist's role. Chronologically, its late in the Noir Era, but stylistically, its a blueprint for all Noir, before or since... just my 2 cents, and worth every penny.

 

[Mahagonny Bill]

And speaking of SF... the Castro Theater hosts the Noir City Film Festival, beginning this Friday, 1/23/2009. Always great noir films and some rare ones not seen on TCM or available on DVD.

Since you mentioned the Noir City festival, we should also pimp The Film Noir Foundation
a group dedicated to rescuing and preserving films from the genre. The FNF produces the Noir City festival in S.F. and then brings shortened versions of the festival to other venues such as the Siff theater in Seattle. I plan on going the the Seattle version Feb.13-19.

Eddie Muller, founder of the FNF has the one of the best definitions of Film Noir I have found. He says (and I am quoting from memory) that Film Noir is "about people who make bad decisions. They know that they are wrong, but they are compelled to make them anyway".

 

[Lily Powers]

Since you mentioned the Noir City festival, we should also pimp The Film Noir Foundation
a group dedicated to rescuing and preserving films from the genre. The FNF produces the Noir City festival in S.F. and then brings shortened versions of the festival to other venues such as the Siff theater in Seattle. I plan on going the the Seattle version Feb.13-19.

Eddie Muller, founder of the FNF has the one of the best definitions of Film Noir I have found. He says (and I am quoting from memory) that Film Noir is "about people who make bad decisions. They know that they are wrong, but they are compelled to make them anyway".

Eddie Muller also provides commentary on bonus tracks of some of the film noir DVDs. He's extremely knowledgeable about noir and a pleasure to watch and listen to at the festival. My only complaint about the SF festival is that there are no weekday matinees - I live about 80-miles away and can certainly commit to a day in the City for a noir double bill, but not so much for an evening and a wee-hours drive home.