Film Noir?

[Atomic Age]

Doug, I'll be following this with bated breath. If I were still a newspaper editor, I'd be giving you some ink to get the publicity going.

Thank you! I'll try and keep you guys up to date with my progress.

Doug

 

[Widebrim]

Out of the Past was not a cheap production by any stretch of the imagination. Location shooting near Lake Tahoe, The Sierra Mountains, in addition to shooting all over Los Angeles. They even sent a small unit to Reno. I've heard the estimated budget at about $1.5 million. (at that time the most expensive movie ever made was Gone With The Wind at $3 million) Add to that Robert Mitchum was their biggest star at the time. While not the most expensive movie RKO ever made, defiantly an "A" picture.

While it could be said that many Noirs were B pictures, there were a fair number of A noirs made at the studios. IE "The Asphalt Jungle" "The Big Sleep"(if you want to classify it as a noir which I do) "Murder, My Sweet", "Key Largo", "His Kind of Woman". Jack Warner even wanted Andre De Toth to make Crime Wave as an "A" film starring Bogart, but De Toth declined making it on the cheep in 17 days with Sterling Hayden instead.

Doug

Very true. Although the majority were "B" films, and therefore allowed those involved to deal with themes/use techniques that the "A's" usually didn't explore, a fair number were well-budgeted (particularly the MGM Noirs).

 

[Atomic Age]

Yes and Fox also put some money into their noir films, particularly those directed by Otto Preminger. In fact I would say of all the studios, Fox probably had the most consistently high quality film noir.

Doug

 

[Widebrim]

Yes and Fox also put some money into their noir films, particularly those directed by Otto Preminger. In fact I would say of all the studios, Fox probably had the most consistently high quality film noir.

Doug

Preminger's Where the Sidewalk Ends is one of my all-time favorites, particularly for Dana Andrews' portrayal (and the presence of Gene Tierney). I don't think that Andrews is usually given enough credit; he was very good at facial nuances.

 

[John in Covina]

From what i have seen and read = Film Noir does originate as the B flick, for those that may not recall or know, at the time a night at the movies included short subjects, a newsreel and a cartoon as well as a double feature. The first film was the A flick and usually a bigger budget film, the B flick such as many noirs was a lower budget (almost a filler but better than that usually.)

I think that as what we would describe as Noir gained a track record the studio heads granted bigger budgets and all that goes with it, while much of the technique was established under the small budget constraints.

 

[Atomic Age]

One of the very earliest films noir is "I Wake Up Screaming" from 1941. It was made within about a month of The Maltese Falcon (a film that is very hard to justify as a film noir) I Wake Up Screaming however has ALL the elements of classic noir. Again this was an A picture that had two of Fox's biggest stars, Betty Grable and Victor Mature. It exhibits classic film noir lighting with deep shadows and unusual camera angles. This was at least 5 to 7 years before "crime" movies started using this style of photography. (again Falcon has a rather typical for its day lighting and camera style) I believe it is also the only crime film that Betty Grable ever made.

To be sure the majority of films noir were B pictures intended to fill out the second half of the program at studio owned theaters. But a surprisingly large number of them were actually A films with big stars.

Doug

 

[Widebrim]

I think that as what we would describe as Noir gained a track record the studio heads granted bigger budgets and all that goes with it, while much of the technique was established under the small budget constraints.

Right, which helps to explain the usage of certain camera/lighting techniques, which were often employed in order to conceal the constraints of a low budget.

 

[Widebrim]

One of the very earliest films noir is "I Wake Up Screaming" from 1941. It was made within about a month of The Maltese Falcon (a film that is very hard to justify as a film noir) I Wake Up Screaming however has ALL the elements of classic noir. Again this was an A picture that had two of Fox's biggest stars, Betty Grable and Victor Mature. It exhibits classic film noir lighting with deep shadows and unusual camera angles. This was at least 5 to 7 years before "crime" movies started using this style of photography. (again Falcon has a rather typical for its day lighting and camera style) I believe it is also the only crime film that Betty Grable ever made.

To be sure the majority of films noir were B pictures intended to fill out the second half of the program at studio owned theaters. But a surprisingly large number of them were actually A films with big stars.

Doug

You're right that it is hard to justify Falcon as a Noir, especially considering the rather common camera techniques and lighting used by Huston. And quite a few Noirs were "A" films, although the "B's" dominate.

 

[martinsantos]

Agree about Maltese Falcon. But it is a iconic noir with Bogart as Sam Spade and so on. The publicity photos made for the film had a much more "noir mood" than the film itself!

 

[Atomic Age]

I would call The Maltese Falcon a kissing cousin to noir. You might even call it proto-noir. But its NOT noir.

Its not noir photographically, its not noir in its themes or story. In many ways it has more in common with a Hercule Poirot mystery than noir, in that the mystery is the primary concern of the plot.

Often times in noir there is no mystery at all. Noir is about the inner workings and motivations of the characters more than the plot or mystery. The mystery in noir is just a device to hang characters and situations on.

Its one of the reasons that I would call The Big Sleep noir, and not Falcon. The plot of the Big Sleep is really unimportant. All of Chandler's stories have a mystery, but it is more often than not secondary to the whys of the story. The motivations of the characters seem to come first, beyond the simple motivation of a treasure hunt as in Falcon.

Doug

 

[martinsantos]

Agree with you about photography, etc. Maltese Falcon isn't the quintessenial noir.

But couldn't we call the story with a hard-boiled private eye, with a complex story (OK, Chandler's stories are far more complex) where who-did-it really isn't the most important thing, as some of the greatest noir clichès? Usually is Dashiell Hammett (and Maltese Falcon) people links with noir - sometimes Chandler and rarely Cornell Woolrich (unfairly underrated, who probably had more noir films from his stories than Hammett and Chandler together. But no private eyes at all, probably a decisive point).

 

[Atomic Age]

Agree with you about photography, etc. Maltese Falcon isn't the quintessenial noir.

But couldn't we call the story with a hard-boiled private eye, with a complex story (OK, Chandler's stories are far more complex) where who-did-it really isn't the most important thing, as some of the greatest noir clichès? Usually is Dashiell Hammett (and Maltese Falcon) people links with noir - sometimes Chandler and rarely Cornell Woolrich (unfairly underrated, who probably had more noir films from his stories than Hammett and Chandler together. But no private eyes at all, probably a decisive point).

Again I would say that Falcon is a kissing cousin to noir. It has SOME elements of noir, but in my opinion not enough to make it a full fledged film noir.

Of the three names you listed there, I think Woolrich is by far the most associated with noir. In his stories its almost always the protagonist who is involved in the crimes and is diving into doom. Chandler's stories are sort of 3rd party noir. Marlowe is often observing another character who is self destructing, so the noir elements are there, they are just filtered through the eyes of Marlowe.

I have to say that Hammett's stories are really more straight mysteries. Rough and tough yes, but they don't seem to have those elements of doom that are typical of noir.

Doug

 

[Wally_Hood]

I would call The Maltese Falcon a kissing cousin to noir. You might even call it proto-noir. But its NOT noir.

Its not noir photographically, its not noir in its themes or story. In many ways it has more in common with a Hercule Poirot mystery than noir, in that the mystery is the primary concern of the plot.

Often times in noir there is no mystery at all. Noir is about the inner workings and motivations of the characters more than the plot or mystery. The mystery in noir is just a device to hang characters and situations on.

Its one of the reasons that I would call The Big Sleep noir, and not Falcon. The plot of the Big Sleep is really unimportant. All of Chandler's stories have a mystery, but it is more often than not secondary to the whys of the story. The motivations of the characters seem to come first, beyond the simple motivation of a treasure hunt as in Falcon.

Doug

Very well said, sir.

The Maltese Falcon could be classified as a detective film, perhaps in the "hard boiled" school. There are some interesting tracking shots by Huston, and the camera angles and lighting do not relfect the noir "look."

 

[martinsantos]

Well, as far as I ask people, Woolrich is completely unknown. Remembered most by a french film made from "the bride wore black".

And one thing I must say about Hammett stories. I can't call him as a "usual" crime writer. You can read and read again all his stories - something that I never found somebody doing with Philo Vance or Agatha Christie...

PS: what's a "kissing cousin"?! Didn't find any translation for this... Sorry.

Again I would say that Falcon is a kissing cousin to noir. It has SOME elements of noir, but in my opinion not enough to make it a full fledged film noir.

Of the three names you listed there, I think Woolrich is by far the most associated with noir. In his stories its almost always the protagonist who is involved in the crimes and is diving into doom. Chandler's stories are sort of 3rd party noir. Marlowe is often observing another character who is self destructing, so the noir elements are there, they are just filtered through the eyes of Marlowe.

I have to say that Hammett's stories are really more straight mysteries. Rough and tough yes, but they don't seem to have those elements of doom that are typical of noir.

Doug

 

[Atomic Age]

Well, as far as I ask people, Woolrich is completely unknown. Remembered most by a french film made from "the bride wore black".

And one thing I must say about Hammett stories. I can't call him as a "usual" crime writer. You can read and read again all his stories - something that I never found somebody doing with Philo Vance or Agatha Christie...

PS: what's a "kissing cousin"?! Didn't find any translation for this... Sorry.

Well Woolrich is the author of the little known stories such as Rear Window, Deadline at Dawn, Phantom Lady, Obsession, The Chase, Fear in the Night, The Window. He isn't exactly unknown.

Hammett was probably the first guy who was writing "hardboiled" crime fiction, and in that respect it was very different from everyone else who was writing at the time. However his stories are still basically just detective fiction, he simply "took murder out of the drawing room and put it into the alley where it belongs." Which I believe is a quite from Chandler about Hammett.

Of course if we are going to talk about authors who influenced noir, James M. Cain is THE MAN!

kissing cousin
n.
1. A distant relative known well enough to be kissed when greeted.
2. One of two or more things that are closely akin.

Doug

 

[martinsantos]

My dear friend, I know who Woolrich is - and I readed all these stories by him, as well saw the movies! :eusa_doh:

I just meant that if we ask people around us about him (of course getting out from FL)... We will get no answer. Noir movies are strongly identified with the private eye, trenchcoat, cigarrete, fedora. A dark street at night, raining (quite a clichè!). This is the "image" people remember by the expression "Noir movie". And not the classical Woolrich plot.

"Who is better: Chandler Vs Hammett" would be a long question (and thread) that I won't start - because it has no end possible. I like both - but I prefer Hammett with the Continental Op stories. Personally I wouldn't call "Red Harvest" or "The Glass Key" as detective stories (because the backgrounds of the crimes), but this is another matter.

Thanks for helping about the expression - quite the opposite I was thinking (something very distant)! One more for my vocabulary...

 

[Atomic Age]

My dear friend, I know who Woolrich is - and I readed all these stories by him, as well saw the movies! :eusa_doh:

I just meant that if we ask people around us about him (of course getting out from FL)... We will get no answer. Noir movies are strongly identified with the private eye, trenchcoat, cigarrete, fedora. A dark street at night, raining (quite a clichè!). This is the "image" people remember by the expression "Noir movie". And not the classical Woolrich plot.

"Who is better: Chandler Vs Hammett" would be a long question (and thread) that I won't start - because it has no end possible. I like both - but I prefer Hammett with the Continental Op stories. Personally I wouldn't call "Red Harvest" or "The Glass Key" as detective stories (because the backgrounds of the crimes), but this is another matter.

Thanks for helping about the expression - quite the opposite I was thinking (something very distant)! One more for my vocabulary...

Oh sorry I misunderstood you about Woolrich. I would suggest that if you asked the average person on the street who Hammett is you would also more often than not get a blank reaction. A slightly larger group MIGHT know who Chandler is, but not many. I suspect that many may not even know who Bogart is.

Yes the clichè of noir is private eyes and trench coats, but the fact of the matter is very few noir films have either. Most people also seem to think that noir films have jazz music scores with saxaphone solos all through out. Of course almost none of the classic noir films have jazz scores.

For me, though I enjoy Hammett, Chandler wins hands down.

Doug

 

[martinsantos]

Doug,

I always had a lot of curiosity about Woolrich work. Very original and interesting. But a lot of people I know readed or heard about Hammett and Chandler (in popularity both walk together! Who knows Hammett knows Chandler, and vice-versa). But never heard about Woolrich. Anyway, they weren't the average people in streets - these can know who Bogart was, but probably never saw a movie with him. Some of people I talked about, around my age (33), like enough films to see that old french production of "Bride wore brack". - something not very common.

(probably the average guy in street would call both of us as crazy, because talking about films and literature).

And I agree completely with you about James M. Cain! He is great!

 

[Widebrim]

Yes, Cain did greatly influence Noir. When it comes to Hammett and Chandler, my vote goes for Chandler. Regarding film adaptations, Woolrich beats all of them hands down, though.

 

[Widebrim]

Saw Crossfire a couple of days ago. Very well photographed, with close to superb lighting. Robert Ryan was powerful in the role of the bigot ex-serviceman who kills a Jew while in a drunken stupor. It was also good to see Robert Young in a low-key role that was none-the-less very different from his Father Knows Best typecast. I think that the film would have been better, though, if Mitchum has played the part of the GI falsely accused of the killing, especially if the role had been beefed up. As it was, while he had plenty of dialogue, his character really had nothing to do with the actual setting up and trapping of Ryan at the end. The opening scene, which actually shows the murder, was very well executed with low-angle camera shots, as well as shadows cast upon a wall. Director Dmytryk said in an interview that the low-lighting was the result of budget constraints, a factor very common in Films Noir. It was also clever not to show Ryan's face in the murder scene, so that as the film progresses, the audience is "allowed" to figure out who the culprit is, just before his identitiy is revealed about half-way through.