Field Leathers

[matchankh]

Hello everyone,

I have recently received the mock-up jacket of the Beck 666 from Greg, and I'm looking for some feedback on the fit before moving forward with the final leather jacket. Here are some changes I'm considering discussing with Greg:

1. The back length seems fine, but the front may be a little short. I'm thinking of increasing the front length by half an inch.
2. The front splay seems a bit short.
3. The bicep area feels a tad restrictive. I'm considering increasing the bicep area while decreasing the wrist area.
4. The throat latch appears a bit oversized, possibly too long.
5. The shoulder area bunches up a bit, which makes me wonder if the shoulder is too narrow. I'm thinking of increasing it by half an inch.

Additionally, I personally prefer a more shirt-sleeve-like, round shoulder look instead of the default squared look that Greg offers. I've noticed that some of you on this forum have achieved this successfully, and I believe it may have to do with a slight forward rotation of the sleeves. If anyone has any advice on how to communicate this preference to Greg, I would greatly appreciate it.

I would be grateful for any input or suggestions regarding the fit of the mock-up and any alterations that could be made.

Thank you all so much for your help!

 

[Damon141]

I would have to look closely at the original or the Toys McCoy Version for the throat latch.

Definitely add a bit to the front drop
Definitely close in the wrist circumference
***Front pockets**** you will notice the front pockets on the Toys McCoy version are slightly slanted, ever so slightly downward so that they remain horizontal even with the wearers chest pulling them up.
The pocket zippers appear longer to me than average and the zippers are reversed.

If you haven't discussed this I would if it were me, there is a great deal of French Seams on some of the originals (they seemed to have changed over the years)
The sleeves have them and the lower back panel attaches with a French Seam.
There are also areas with double stitching around the sleeve/shoulder attachment

Some of the best photos are here
https://avenuewebstore.com/toysmccoy/?page_id=11138
https://ote-shibata.shop-pro.jp/?pid=147890416
https://take5tw.pixnet.net/blog/post/457283315

Here is what i meant about the chest pocket angle

 

[Aloysius]

The originals came in different versions so there’s a fair bit of range. I wouldn’t look at the Toys McCoy as interchangeable with it. I remember TMC’s latch in particular being a bit unusual.

The French seam at the kidney panel and at the panels under the arm do seem to be consistent.

Marc and I posted some references some pages ago.

Rin Tanaka’s Schott book has a big assortment of references that should be helpful.

 

[Damon141]

The originals came in different versions so there’s a fair bit of range. I wouldn’t look at the Toys McCoy as interchangeable with it. I remember TMC’s latch in particular being a bit unusual.

The French seam at the kidney panel and at the panels under the arm do seem to be consistent.

Marc and I posted some references some pages ago.

Rin Tanaka’s Schott book has a big assortment of references that should be helpful.

I think the toys McCoy version would look great on you Aloysius, you could pull off a stock size if you found a like new one from a Japanese auction

 

[Aloysius]

I think the toys McCoy version would look great on you Aloysius, you could pull off a stock size if you found a like new one from a Japanese auction

I think I'm about covered for cafe racers with the Vanson I got, but if I were to get a Beck repro, I would get the Schott one. The temper of the leather is identical to that of the originals, with some improvements (vintage jackets often used a substitute material for things like gussets), and they even have the same seam construction, in the same places, as the originals.

Given that they made the originals, I assume they had the patterns on hand. IMO it's the best repro Beck 666 around, so it's sad to see it being phased out (that's what these steeply discounted models mean), but on the other hand it's an amazing deal.

Frankly, I think you should consider one too! I got my cousin (same height as you but also a big guy) a Schott in a big size, he brought it by one of their stores, and they sent it in to the factory for sleeve shortening at no charge. Even if they did charge, my experience with their repairs department has been that they charge very reasonable prices.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Hello everyone,

I have recently received the mock-up jacket of the Beck 666 from Greg, and I'm looking for some feedback on the fit before moving forward with the final leather jacket. Here are some changes I'm considering discussing with Greg:

View attachment 510628 View attachment 510629 View attachment 510630 View attachment 510632 View attachment 510631

1. The back length seems fine, but the front may be a little short. I'm thinking of increasing the front length by half an inch.
2. The front splay seems a bit short.
3. The bicep area feels a tad restrictive. I'm considering increasing the bicep area while decreasing the wrist area.
4. The throat latch appears a bit oversized, possibly too long.
5. The shoulder area bunches up a bit, which makes me wonder if the shoulder is too narrow. I'm thinking of increasing it by half an inch.

Additionally, I personally prefer a more shirt-sleeve-like, round shoulder look instead of the default squared look that Greg offers. I've noticed that some of you on this forum have achieved this successfully, and I believe it may have to do with a slight forward rotation of the sleeves. If anyone has any advice on how to communicate this preference to Greg, I would greatly appreciate it.

I would be grateful for any input or suggestions regarding the fit of the mock-up and any alterations that could be made.

Thank you all so much for your help!

The Beck cafe racer is basically a Kensington with dropped shoulder. Toys added pleats but some original pic in the books have them and some don't. One thing they all have is A2 jacket shoulder, taller shoulder rise / slope. The current Field Leathers cafe racers have the square cafe racer shoulders like Aero and Vanson B which does not drop in shoulder and round out. I think his leathertog pattern has the A2 shoulders. I'll find out when I get the sale page jacket. Hard to tell by pic from the front because the sleeves are still attached at an angle but from the back its clear. Should see a very clear pyramid shape for shoulder slope.
About your wrist, does it have zipper now? One thing to keep in mind is when the zipper is closed it tightens another inch or more. If he is using what he uses on the Manhattan they close down quite tight. I'd give him what you want in wrist diameter from your other jackets.

 

[Damon141]

I know most don't like shoulder or back gussets but on some like the Beck 666 and some Schott jackets and the Bates racer, it adds something for me. In my humble opinion it is easier for a maker to leave it out, clearly less work.
Some of the amazing vintage half belts and cross zips have really cool ones. Like the Californian and the J-24

 

[matchankh]

I would have to look closely at the original or the Toys McCoy Version for the throat latch.

Definitely add a bit to the front drop
Definitely close in the wrist circumference
***Front pockets**** you will notice the front pockets on the Toys McCoy version are slightly slanted, ever so slightly downward so that they remain horizontal even with the wearers chest pulling them up.
The pocket zippers appear longer to me than average and the zippers are reversed.

If you haven't discussed this I would if it were me, there is a great deal of French Seams on some of the originals (they seemed to have changed over the years)
The sleeves have them and the lower back panel attaches with a French Seam.
There are also areas with double stitching around the sleeve/shoulder attachment

Some of the best photos are here
https://avenuewebstore.com/toysmccoy/?page_id=11138
https://ote-shibata.shop-pro.jp/?pid=147890416
https://take5tw.pixnet.net/blog/post/457283315

Here is what i meant about the chest pocket angle
View attachment 510840
View attachment 510841

Wow, I completely missed that the chest pockets are actually slightly slanted instead of horizontal, and I didn't notice the French seams at the lower panel either. Thanks for pointing those out!

Regarding the diagonal lines, do you think the shoulders might be too small? Greg made the shoulder a lot narrower (16”, I think) than my normal jackets (18”). I'm not sure if that's the reason for the bunching up.

 

[matchankh]

The originals came in different versions so there’s a fair bit of range. I wouldn’t look at the Toys McCoy as interchangeable with it. I remember TMC’s latch in particular being a bit unusual.

The French seam at the kidney panel and at the panels under the arm do seem to be consistent.

Marc and I posted some references some pages ago.

Rin Tanaka’s Schott book has a big assortment of references that should be helpful.

Yes I have gone over different versions of the original and there is definitely a lot of variance. I figure I should stick with the TMC version instead of trying of blend the different elements together.

If stock sizing could fit me. I would definitely just get the TMC version be done with it instead of going bespoke.

 

[matchankh]

The Beck cafe racer is basically a Kensington with dropped shoulder. Toys added pleats but some original pic in the books have them and some don't. One thing they all have is A2 jacket shoulder, taller shoulder rise / slope. The current Field Leathers cafe racers have the square cafe racer shoulders like Aero and Vanson B which does not drop in shoulder and round out. I think his leathertog pattern has the A2 shoulders. I'll find out when I get the sale page jacket. Hard to tell by pic from the front because the sleeves are still attached at an angle but from the back its clear. Should see a very clear pyramid shape for shoulder slope.
About your wrist, does it have zipper now? One thing to keep in mind is when the zipper is closed it tightens another inch or more. If he is using what he uses on the Manhattan they close down quite tight. I'd give him what you want in wrist diameter from your other jackets.

I see I will definitely ask Greg for the A2 shoulders.

My mock up jacket doesn’t have any zippers at the wrist. Maybe that’s why it’s loose right now. Will bring it up with Greg and see what he thinks.

Thanks a lot for the input!

 

[Aloysius]

Yes I have gone over different versions of the original and there is definitely a lot of variance. I figure I should stick with the TMC version instead of trying of blend the different elements together.

If stock sizing could fit me. I would definitely just get the TMC version be done with it instead of going bespoke.

I think you're missing my main point.

This type of jacket, a 'racing shirt' as many would call it, is pretty much the same from every maker. The key differences are really just materials and superficial things like kidney panel vs shoulder yoke placement or pocket angles. It's really a simple garment that fits straight and close to the body.

It's not like cross zips which will have a range of construction types or approaches to tapering. Yeah the Japanese brands will slap one name or another onto their own racing shirts and call it a 'reproduction' but more often than not it's just that that company licensed the defunct name in question.

The key thing about the Beck (and the best photos of this are in Schott's repro I linked above) is the use of French seams to attach the kidney panel and for the panels under the sleeve.

You'll be best off getting Greg's own racing shirt pattern, the Route 66, and making sure to nail the fit. Don't worry about copying Schott's construction in the 60s; it was great but Greg isn't going to be giving you compromised construction. He's putting a lot more into it.

I'd go over the neck lines with Sam and she can probably figure out what's causing them.

 

[Marc mndt]

I think his leathertog pattern has the A2 shoulders. I'll find out when I get the sale page jacket.

That's the Manhattan pattern size 44 with the sleeve pitch rotated forwards. Plus wider sleeves than his standard pattern.

 

[MrProper]

Regarding the diagonal lines, do you think the shoulders might be too small?

The wrinkles certainly do not come from too narrow shoulders.
Either the shoulders/neck angle is too flat or the neck-to-armpit distance is too short. Both can produce these wrinkles.

But I think the mock-up jacket is pretty cool. I would also wear it as a jacket if it were complete.

 

[Canuck Panda]

That's the Manhattan pattern size 44 with the sleeve pitch rotated forwards. Plus wider sleeves than his standard pattern.

Greg could develop an A2 shoulder type pattern block. I think he is missing that one right now. It would be similar to the Boardracer/Aeromarine/Type 3 with the taller shoulder slope. He can still use his angled sleeved attachment, so do that and they seem to work just as well.
That's a bummer, I'd thought the sale jacket would be like the A2 based leathertogs...

 

[Aloysius]

That's a bummer, I'd thought the sale jacket would be like the A2 based leathertogs...

A-2 based Leathertogs? There was no such thing.

The A-2 jacket though flattering in its own minimalist way was the simplest jacket ever in terms of construction. Had to be.

Are you thinking of that one-off Leathertogs that's in Stu's collection, which was a Leathertogs motorcycle jacket but in russet horsehide with epaulettes to have more of an Army Air Forces look? There was no actual construction/pattern link to the A-2 in that; it was just a civilian wartime purchase that the owner wore in combat. An A-2 would be a lot simpler/cheaper.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I see I will definitely ask Greg for the A2 shoulders.

My mock up jacket doesn’t have any zippers at the wrist. Maybe that’s why it’s loose right now. Will bring it up with Greg and see what he thinks.

Thanks a lot for the input!

I wouldn't worry so much about the shoulder width measuring across. As long as you get the curve length you're good to go.
A2 shoulder, higher rise, narrower width, gives the same shoulder curve length as the regular square shoulder, lower rise, wider width.
A2 shoulder, 18" across, but 20" around the bend, because the height of the curve (3"). This is the one that Greg is missing I believe, exactly what the Kensington is thanks to Navtsea pointing it out.

Square shoulder, wider across 19", same around the curve 20" and lower curve height (2")

The end result is more or less the same, but all the "racing shirt" type jacket I've seen and have, seems to have the A2 type shoulder constructions, for authenticity.

 

[Canuck Panda]

A-2 based Leathertogs? There was no such thing.

The A-2 jacket though flattering in its own minimalist way was the simplest jacket ever in terms of construction. Had to be.

Are you thinking of that one-off Leathertogs that's in Stu's collection, which was a Leathertogs motorcycle jacket but in russet horsehide with epaulettes to have more of an Army Air Forces look? There was no actual construction/pattern link to the A-2 in that; it was just a civilian wartime purchase that the owner wore in combat. An A-2 would be a lot simpler/cheaper.

I know which one you're talking about, the brown one. Real nice.

I meant the curve of the back shoulder, like the A2 jacket, the curve it taller. The two other leathertog repro I have have the taller shoulder curve like the A2 jackets. More round. Maybe that's why that FL went onto the sale page. Still an awesome jacket and I got a good deal on.

Taller shoulder curve:

Althought the FW one looks kinda flatter shoulder curve now. I need to check the rise again... But the High Notch repro is tall like the A2 jackets, but then he's also an A2 jacket enthusiast... Hard to say. Need to see an original to know for sure...

 

[Aloysius]

None of these jackets is anything like an A-2 imo.

An A-2 has the most simplified construction of any jacket.

 

[Marc mndt]

A2 shoulder, 18" across, but 20" around the bend, because the height of the curve (3"). This is the one that Greg is missing I believe, exactly what the Kensington is thanks to Navtsea pointing it out.

I'm trying to understand but I have no idea what you're talking about. Here's the Manhattan. 7.5cm which is 3". Exactly what Greg is missing? Here it is

Maybe that's why that FL went onto the sale page. Still an awesome jacket and I got a good deal on.

That was my order, there's nothing wrong with the shoulder. It came up slightly too big because he didn't take into account the French seams on the back.

 

[Canuck Panda]

None of these jackets is anything like an A-2 imo.

An A-2 has the most simplified construction of any jacket.

Not an exact A2 design you're correct, but the shoulder of the A2 carried on, it's softer, less angular:

The High Notch one is really one size smaller and still sort of maintains that softer curve even with the tight pulling a the neck.

Not saying which is better round (A2 like) or square (most other jackets like). But most racing shirts type jackets I've seen are the round type. So it would seem it'd be more authenticate if the Beck would be the rounded one.