Explaining the Aero Fit.

[Canuck Panda]

@born113 With arms up you mean like this:

Or this:

I don't think this is a fair way of judging "mobility". Unless you are trying to mad max / roller derby the guy riding/driving next to you.
The angle or the way the sleeves are attached to the body affects how the garment pulls when doing the "warrior" pose I think that's the correct yoga term.

Most of the leather jackets I have, regardless of brands, have the similar sleeve attachment as the Highwayman (the brown one), so essentially they all "fail" or "pass" the warrior pose test, depending on the perception. The bomber style jackets have the straighter sleeves like the green one.

Here is what I mean by different sleeve attachment:
Best for warrior pose

Worst for warrior pose (FWIW all my motorcycle jackets are like this, regardless brands, except Lewis because that's technically an early aviator)

And let's invite the modern GAP into the threesome:

And one with all three building a cheer leading pyramid, on top of each other:

The only problem I have with Aero is they don't publish their dimensions openly, neck and hem. But I think I understand why now. They don't wanna be copied easily. I get that. No one likes to get their shit stolen. But then again this also make some very frustrating customers who pissed away good money trying to get the fit right. Can't have it all...

 

[born113]

The angle or the way the sleeves are attached to the body affects how the garment pulls when doing the "warrior" pose I think that's the correct yoga term.

It is in this position that the raglan sleeve solves all the problems, as it seems to me.
And I even thought that maybe I will order 5* copy of my favorite Fjallraven jacket with raglan sleeves. I just now thought about it when I saw your photos.

I don't think this is a fair way of judging "mobility". Unless you are trying to mad max / roller derby the guy riding/driving next to you.

I didn’t mean how the jacket looks with raised arms, but how a person feels with raised arms with tags 38 and 40 of the 1950s block.

 

[Rich22]

@born113 With arms up you mean like this:
View attachment 401934
Or this:
View attachment 401935

I don't think this is a fair way of judging "mobility". Unless you are trying to mad max / roller derby the guy riding/driving next to you.
The angle or the way the sleeves are attached to the body affects how the garment pulls when doing the "warrior" pose I think that's the correct yoga term.

Most of the leather jackets I have, regardless of brands, have the similar sleeve attachment as the Highwayman (the brown one), so essentially they all "fail" or "pass" the warrior pose test, depending on the perception. The bomber style jackets have the straighter sleeves like the green one.

Here is what I mean by different sleeve attachment:
Best for warrior pose
View attachment 401947

Worst for warrior pose (FWIW all my motorcycle jackets are like this, regardless brands, except Lewis because that's technically an early aviator)
View attachment 401948

And let's invite the modern GAP into the threesome:
View attachment 401958

And one with all three building a cheer leading pyramid, on top of each other:
View attachment 401959

The only problem I have with Aero is they don't publish their dimensions openly, neck and hem. But I think I understand why now. They don't wanna be copied easily. I get that. No one likes to get their shit stolen. But then again this also make some very frustrating customers who pissed away good money trying to get the fit right. Can't have it all...

It takes a lot more to construct a good leather jacket than just dimensions. Every company should be transparent about dimensions, BUT it is difficult to keep the dimensions consistent when building leather jackets...

 

[zebedee]

The arm-raising thing is more to do with the condition of your shoulders. Jackets will wear in to any movement you regularly make; some of the issues would be alleviated by gussets or sizing. More roomy sizing will give you greater mobility.

 

[born113]

BUT it is difficult to keep the dimensions consistent when...

Yes. And the task becomes even more difficult when... someone does not want to solve it

 

[zebedee]

Yes. And the task becomes even more difficult when... someone does not want to solve it

Working in leather is not as precise as working in cloth. You're always going to get 'tolerances' in sizing, even more so with handmade leather items. When you think about it, two hides aren't ever going to be exactly the same in terms of thickness, stretch, hand, etc. 'Good' fit is a laudable goal in a single item and can be achieved; expecting extreme consistency over many hand-crafted items is probably on a hiding to nothing.

 

[Canuck Panda]

^^^This, about tolerance in leather.

While the leather can be cut to the exact same sizes per the pattern. When it is put together, every jacket will be measured differently by every different person. Most people don't want to hear this but it's the truth. There is no difference between 1/2". And cloth fitting jacket doesn't work imo. The way my moto jackets are fitted locally is by going in person and she use these plastic clips to get to the size / fit I want while I am wearing it and then sew on the spot to get to the size. Same with my suits. It usually take at least two to three fittings in person. There is no way to do bespoke online using numbers, no matter what the marketing says.

The sizes/dimensions do tell the story of style. I sent my Aero Daytona measurements to Shawn, and the results is not the same because both are constructed differently. I am sure someone sent Shawn the half belt measurements from Aero and I am interested to find out how that turns out. This is what I meant by makers are hesitant to publish dimensions, not for their fit but the style. But in reality, even two jackets measures exactly the same in the major areas, the construction / sleeve can still be different enough when I put them on they do not fit or look the same. Still everyone is in their right to defend what they think is theirs.

In short, if you fancy a 5star, buy a 5star. If you want an Aero buy and Aero. And so on. There is no guarantee an exact copy given the major measurements. Every pattern maker has their own way of attaching the sleeves to the bodice. Unless it is reverse engineered and copied exactly it is not the same given the same measurements.

 

[Finn Vigorous]

It is in this position that the raglan sleeve solves all the problems, as it seems to me.
And I even thought that maybe I will order 5* copy of my favorite Fjallraven jacket with raglan sleeves.

Which problems are you actually referring to?

As others have pointed out, making leather jackets is a very different endeavour to working with textiles. And with leather jackets, we're talking about outerwear: you can wear jackets with different layers underneath, and kind of adjust the sizing in so doing.

That said, I prefer having different fitting leather jackets for different purposes, and I'm never as picky with them as I'm with my tailored suits, which are both easier to make to exact measure and always worn with the same layering, a formal dress shirt. And as much Savile Row tailoring is precise craftsmanship, it's nowhere near mechanical watchmaking.

 

[born113]

Mankind invented mathematics, antibiotics, spaceships. But someone still considers leather to be a complex material Extracting, standardizing and selling oil/hydrocarbons globally is a more complex undertaking. And this is just one of countless examples.
If someone is not capable of something or does not know how to do something, this does not mean that something does not exist or something is impossible.

Here I am, for example, either a fool or asking the wrong questions. A few messages above, I asked @Canuck Panda a question. I received a large detailed response with additional information of interest to me. But that didn't answer my original question. Then I repeated my question. But @Canuck Panda ignored the question and only responded to part of my message.
Am I suggesting that @Canuck Panda is incapable of giving me an answer? No. Am I suggesting that the answer is basically impossible? No. First of all, I assume that I wrote incorrectly. At least my English is bad. As a maximum, I am not able to formulate the question precisely/clearly.

I wrote all this not in order to continue discussing the possibility or impossibility of precise leather tailoring, but only to show that worldviews are different. I may refer to this post myself in the future. And then I'm usually too lazy to write large texts

P.S. And I am always grateful to @Canuck Panda for all his messages.

 

[Finn Vigorous]

If you could elaborate which problems exactly you have faced and/or try to avoid, it would be easier to get the idea what's actually at stake.

Do you have some of your own jackets for reference about these? This would help a lot.

 

[zebedee]

"Mankind invented mathematics, antibiotics, spaceships. But someone still considers leather to be a complex material Extracting, standardizing and selling oil/hydrocarbons globally is a more complex undertaking. And this is just one of countless examples."

And yet none of us foresaw this line of argument.

At this point, we aren't comparing like with like or even 'ballparking' much of a point. Handcrafted heavy leather, cut by hand, reliant on an online customer's self-measurement, stitched on a walking foot machine, eyeballed for QC and then subject to the customer's subjective whim/joy/relief/sober appraisal/panties-in-bunch neuroses, etc. ... might not come near 'worldviews', perhaps, so much as pedantry to varying degrees.

"...but how a person feels with raised arms with tags 38 and 40 of the 1950s block." Does this putative person walk about with arms wheeling like Kate Bush normally, or only expect to do so when wearing horsehide?

 

[born113]

"Mankind invented mathematics, antibiotics, spaceships. But someone still considers leather to be a complex material Extracting, standardizing and selling oil/hydrocarbons globally is a more complex undertaking. And this is just one of countless examples."

And yet none of us foresaw this line of argument.

At this point, we aren't comparing like with like or even 'ballparking' much of a point. Handcrafted heavy leather, cut by hand, reliant on an online customer's self-measurement, stitched on a walking foot machine, eyeballed for QC and then subject to the customer's subjective whim/joy/relief/sober appraisal/panties-in-bunch neuroses, etc. ... might not come near 'worldviews', perhaps, so much as pedantry to varying degrees.

"...but how a person feels with raised arms with tags 38 and 40 of the 1950s block." Does this putative person walk about with arms wheeling like Kate Bush normally, or only expect to do so when wearing horsehide?

You, to put it mildly, inaccurately reproduced even what I wrote. Additionally, a juggling of thoughts was made. Is this kind of art interesting? Maybe someone. Is this actually a reaction? No. Should I publicly end the "discussion" of my question? I have completed.

 

[Canuck Panda]

@born113 I am hearing you! It is extremely difficult, next to almost impossible, to have 100% assurance buying clothes online, without trying them on in person. But at the same time I also can't tell you which size to go with because I simply don't know, even that I have both sizes! I can only share the numbers as best as I can.
I wish there is a mathematical formula. But I've found there is no science to clothing. When it comes to clothing, in this case leather jackets, given the same parameters, the result are not repeatable, hence not science.
Looking back in the older threads, you will find both success stories and not so great ones. Some had success going from 38 to 40 while others were not satisfied going from 42 to 40.
When it comes to leather jackets, blind leap of faith or loose impulse control is usually the first step. Desire helps. Sometimes we get lucky and get a hole in one. But most times it's about falling and getting back up for the next one.

 

[born113]

@Canuck Panda I'm inclined to believe that absolutely no one understood my question. Of course it could be my fault.
I am trying to write the same question in a different way.

You have two identical 1950s jackets. 38 and 40 size. You try to raise your arms or rotate your arms while wearing these jackets. I'm wondering if the size is more comfortable for @Canuck Panda ? Only for @Canuck Panda. Not for me or anyone else. I do not ask for guarantees and ready-made formulas. My question is simple. I don't know of easier questions

 

[Canuck Panda]

@Canuck Panda I'm inclined to believe that absolutely no one understood my question. Of course it could be my fault.
I am trying to write the same question in a different way.

You have two identical 1950s jackets. 38 and 40 size. You try to raise your arms or rotate your arms while wearing these jackets. I'm wondering if the size is more comfortable for @Canuck Panda ? Only for @Canuck Panda. Not for me or anyone else. I do not ask for guarantees and ready-made formulas. My question is simple. I don't know of easier questions

To be fair, the arms/rotation movement while different feeling, I would say the 40 is no better than the 38. This is due to the full action back. It might be different if there is no action back.
What the 40 does better is easier to get in and out of. The slightly bigger torso and sleeves makes the jacket easy to wear. No sucking in the stomach or stiffy yoga pose while putting on and taking off with the 40. The 38 takes more effort to get in and out of because it's slimmer. And those unnecessary efforts adds up and seems like why am I putting up with this. I might as well wear a real suit. This is why I prefer the 40.
However, the main reason I am keeping the 38 is because I've had more positive comments from the ladies when I am wearing one. This might seem shallow but it's just how it is. A positive compliment from the ladies goes a long way with me. But I am also not sacrificing my everyday comfort for that, not always. So I have two of these jackets in 40 and only one in 38. It's more like a 5 to 1 in wears in real life. For every 5 days I wear the 40 I wear the 38 for one day.
This is why I said I can't tell you which one you should go, 38 or 40 because I don't even know myself. I still kept the 38 despite the smaller neck holes which I can't zip up and the extra effort needed on daily basis. Hope this helps.

 

[ReynardTheFox]

I'll be heading to Aero to get fitted up for whatever jacket I decide to go for. I'm tall and slim and if I'm shelling out that sort of wedge then it will be after I've been measured up by them. I'm fortunate that my sister lives in the Scottish Borders so I'll be spongeing off her. Two birds, one stone.

 

[born113]

What the 40 does better is easier to get in and out of. The slightly bigger torso and sleeves makes the jacket easy to wear. No sucking in the stomach or stiffy yoga pose while putting on and taking off with the 40. The 38 takes more effort to get in and out of because it's slimmer.

Thanks a lot. It was the movement of the arms that I was interested in. Elegance/aesthetics in leather jackets is definitely not in the first place for me, since I plan to use leather only for walking.

However, the main reason I am keeping the 38 is because I've had more positive comments from the ladies when I am wearing one. This might seem shallow but it's just how it is. A positive compliment from the ladies goes a long way with me.

You can get significantly more compliments from women if you just take off all your clothes... IMHO

 

[Aloysius]

Thanks a lot. It was the movement of the arms that I was interested in. Elegance/aesthetics in leather jackets is definitely not in the first place for me, since I plan to use leather only for walking.

Why get a leather jacket then instead of a field jacket?

My most worn is probably the Barbour Border I've had since I was a teenager, followed by a safari jacket I got a decade ago (and have worn extensively on safari). There are many other great options too, like repro/vintage army designs. If you're in Europe, there's a very nice Austrian version of the American M65 jacket. They exist in various kinds– for instance, there is an extremely lightweight tropical field jacket for summer/humid weather (Rickson's makes a repro of this) as well as ones woven to keep out the elements.

 

[born113]

Why get a leather jacket then instead of a field jacket?

My most worn is probably the Barbour Border I've had since I was a teenager, followed by a safari jacket I got a decade ago (and have worn extensively on safari). There are many other great options too, like repro/vintage army designs. If you're in Europe, there's a very nice Austrian version of the American M65 jacket. They exist in various kinds– for instance, there is an extremely lightweight tropical field jacket for summer/humid weather (Rickson's makes a repro of this) as well as ones woven to keep out the elements.

If we talk only about convenience/comfort then I have a lot of membranes and fleece. My membrane jackets, pants and other things cost more than many leather jackets. But the soul requires variety.
Barbour, as far as I understand, is an analogue of Fjallraven. I also wear such clothes, but I have never waxed clothes myself. I still haven't been able to bring myself to wrap myself in wax. But maybe that's a good idea too.
In short, leather is the only material I haven't used since the last century. Now I have a lot of free time and sparsely populated areas. I will do just a few experiments with leather clothes and calm down.

 

[Aloysius]

If we talk only about convenience/comfort then I have a lot of membranes and fleece. My membrane jackets, pants and other things cost more than many leather jackets. But the soul requires variety.
Barbour, as far as I understand, is an analogue of Fjallraven. I also wear such clothes, but I have never waxed clothes myself. I still haven't been able to bring myself to wrap myself in wax. But maybe that's a good idea too.
In short, leather is the only material I haven't used since the last century. Now I have a lot of free time and sparsely populated areas. I will do just a few experiments with leather clothes and calm down.

I'm not talking about full on modern tech wear. I'm talking about things with quite a bit of heritage appeal.

Barbour is quite different from Fjallraven even though both have waxed cotton products. The Beaufort (and Border, its longer version) is one of the most iconic and beloved jacket designs for good reason.

This Buzz Rickson's repro of a classic American design has been a newer fave of mine.