Experience of service in the Armed Forces

[Edward]

In very large part. In my day, 20% of us went to University; it's now closer to 51% in the UK, I believe. Inevitably this makes it all the harder to distinguish themselves from the herd.

 

[Ticklishchap]

I

I'm constantly very impressed with our own undergraduates in most of the UK institutions of which I've had experience. This in the context of a wider experience of postgraduates from all corners of the globe (I've taught LLM classes with 32 plus different jurisdictions represented). UK kids aren't generally so bad as it's fashionable to believe.

I'm definitely not saying they're 'bad' in any way as people, just that there is a noticeable inarticulacy - having to add the word 'like' to everything, for instance - compared to young people from Central and Eastern Europe, who often speak better English, can form sentences and are equipped with skills. There is a strong emphasis now on treating students as examination fodder, without teaching them to speak clearly or think clearly, and without any emphasis on social skills, which means that they often appear gauche.

There is another, arguably more sinister side to this. The narrow focus of so much academic education means that many students and graduates are poorly read outside their immediate subject area and there is very little depth or breadth of knowledge. This is, I suspect, the underlying cause of the ideological conformity that seems to be taking hold among students - and many academics. It's not just that the ideological positions are extremely unattractive (although for the most part they are), but that they seem to be based on sentimentality and tantrums rather than evidence or reasoned argument - the response to counter-argument seems to be tears, screams and censorship. This has worrying implications for the pursuit of knowledge and free inquiry, in which nothing should above criticism or examination.

 

[Ticklishchap]

I may very well be wrong but I think that this is because the job market has become even more competitive. Uni students know that a BA alone in some esoteric major is not a ticket to a plum job now. Well that's what my nephew back in NZ tells me and he's intent on working like a Trojan. Not too much time for the pub crawl/arsing about shenanigans that used to go on along with the studying.

Very good luck to your nephew. I wish him well.

 

[Harp]

There is another, arguably more sinister side to this. The narrow focus of so much academic education means that many students and graduates are poorly read outside their immediate subject area and there is very little depth or breadth of knowledge.

A strict baccalaureate core across the liberal arts was required in my day; though I am unfamiliar with British university degree requirements.

 

[Ticklishchap]

A strict baccalaureate core across the liberal arts was required in my day; though I am unfamiliar with British university degree requirements.

British degrees have always been more specialised but until the recent past it was assumed that most students would be broadly educated and the courses themselves encouraged or provided time for other interests and activities - and encouraged a wide-ranging curiosity. The lack of curiosity and the dogmatism that has crept into academia today is quite a worrying trend.

 

[Smithy]

Very good luck to your nephew. I wish him well.

Thank you so much Ticklishchap, he's a good lad, he's going to study engineering (aviation), my sister blames me for his fixation on all things that fly!

 

[Ticklishchap]

Thank you so much Ticklishchap, he's a good lad, he's going to study engineering (aviation), my sister blames me for his fixation on all things that fly!

It seems a pity he's so far away from you, Smithy: the distance between Norway and NZ is considerable, to say the least, although of course there is email, Skype, facebook, etc. I seem to recall from another thread that you were until recently in Australia?

 

[Edward]

I'm definitely not saying they're 'bad' in any way as people, just that there is a noticeable inarticulacy - having to add the word 'like' to everything, for instance - compared to young people from Central and Eastern Europe, who often speak better English, can form sentences and are equipped with skills. There is a strong emphasis now on treating students as examination fodder, without teaching them to speak clearly or think clearly, and without any emphasis on social skills, which means that they often appear gauche.

I imagine that must vary between institutions and faculties. It certainly is often the case that non-English-as-a-first-language folks speak more technically correct English, as that's what they've learned, though certainly all the kids I've ever taught in London have been extremely articulate and mostly great communicators. That said, the entry standards are so high (I think we now require two As and an A* to get into the undergraduate law programme), that they do tend to be good.

There is another, arguably more sinister side to this. The narrow focus of so much academic education means that many students and graduates are poorly read outside their immediate subject area and there is very little depth or breadth of knowledge.

It's certainly true that most kids just don't have the time to read much beyond their own courses. That's one of the great things about the undergraduate programmes on which I teach having exams only in the Summer term - there's a full year for them to read around their subject, and the depth of knowledge they have in terms of law (though, no, they won't sadly be well versed in literature or the classics or other areas) far dwarfs what was the norm in my day, when we slogged from one set of modular exams to another, every twelve-week term. Theres' not much of a way around that, though. In an ideal world, I'd love to add an extra year to the undergraduate degree which gave them the opportunity to take a whole bunch of additional courses from a wdie range of areas, to give them the chance to study other things. Could be a separate Dilpoma at the end of it. Sadly, I very much doubt there will ever be the willingness to fund that, and so many kids nowadays are already put off university by the fear of huge debt...

This is, I suspect, the underlying cause of the ideological conformity that seems to be taking hold among students - and many academics. It's not just that the ideological positions are extremely unattractive (although for the most part they are), but that they seem to be based on sentimentality and tantrums rather than evidence or reasoned argument - the response to counter-argument seems to be tears, screams and censorship. This has worrying implications for the pursuit of knowledge and free inquiry, in which nothing should above criticism or examination.

I've seen all sorts of claims to this effect over the past near quarter century that I've been around academia, but aside from various, sensationalised tabloid reports, precious little evidence of the claimed groupthink. Everyone I know in academia bends over backwards to encourage students to form their own opinions, irrespective of what those might be, and I've certainly never found academics to be easily pigeion-holed. In the UK certainly you'd struggle to find a more diverse bunch of people, politically speaking. It's interesting, though, being on the inside and looking out and seeing the media representation that bears little or no resemblence to the reality being perpetuated by the press, whatever the reason.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Change of topic ?

 

[Smithy]

It seems a pity he's so far away from you, Smithy: the distance between Norway and NZ is considerable, to say the least, although of course there is email, Skype, facebook, etc. I seem to recall from another thread that you were until recently in Australia?

Hi Ticklish, yes I was until late last year. 6 years in the Dry Country and now in the arctic north, from one extreme to the other!

It is a shame to be so far away but I come from a family where we sprinkle ourselves around the world. Itchy feet seems to have run in the family since my grandparents time. I imagine the little fella pursuing aviation engineering will have to follow in the family footsteps and go further afield than NZ. His sister was at drama school in the UK in 2014 and is moving back there next year, so I'll have the chance to see my niece more often.

I just realised that my wife and I have shifted country 6 times since 2003 but no more, we have nippers now

 

[Edward]

Change of topic ?

Hazards of the web! But yes, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Harp]

Hazards of the web! But yes, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Saw a Hook last week, and recall jumping at 700-800ft, a long ass drop without a prop blast as is the C-130 static line jump. A knife to the gut. Miss that stuff.

 

[Ticklishchap]

Hi Ticklish, yes I was until late last year. 6 years in the Dry Country and now in the arctic north, from one extreme to the other!

It is a shame to be so far away but I come from a family where we sprinkle ourselves around the world. Itchy feet seems to have run in the family since my grandparents time. I imagine the little fella pursuing aviation engineering will have to follow in the family footsteps and go further afield than NZ. His sister was at drama school in the UK in 2014 and is moving back there next year, so I'll have the chance to see my niece more often.

I just realised that my wife and I have shifted country 6 times since 2003 but no more, we have nippers now

Hi Smithy
Glad you're settled in Norway with a young family now. I would like to see NZ sometime - I have never been there but I spent a few years in Melbourne when I was very young and really liked it - I still have clear memories of school, the trams, the beaches and parks. It was beginning to develop into a very cosmopolitan city when I was there: these changes were beginning to take place around me. I have a lot of happy memories of that time.

 

[Ticklishchap]

Hazards of the web! But yes, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

There is one point that does need answering and then I'll shift back to the topic. While the printed (and online) press especially perhaps in the UK exaggerates in a sensationalist, biased and unhelpful manner, the portrayal of political conformity at universities/ex-polytechnics is not entirely without foundation. There have been a number of occasions recently when people with perfectly valid and non-extreme opinions have been denied the right to speak at universities or have faced attempts to censor them.
Quite a lot of the courses, especially in the social sciences, are taught through ideological prisms such as gender and race. A growing number of young men, in particular, have cottoned onto this and are opting for apprenticeships that equip them with skills, do not saddle them with debt and are not ideological.
This is where we go back on-topic: although I would not suggest bringing back National Service, my understanding from reading the history of the period and conversations with older men who went through those two years is that they often learned useful skills, including in some cases literacy and numeracy when they had left school early or had poor basic education.

 

[Foxer55]

I came from a military family and spent many years in the Civil Air Patrol but that's all another story and another life.

Out of high school I joined the U.S. Army in 1962 as a Nuclear Weapons Technician on the advice of a friend. In 1962, even as an enlisted, this was pretty heady stuff for a 20 year old, especially being given such responsibilities in foreign countries. After 3 years the experience put me in a class of highly trusted technologists that would serve me well throughout my life. Even today I still work in very advanced aerospace and defense technologies on the leading edge of things. But the experience of being in the military was unparalleled to any other experience I've had in terms of commitment to duty, honor, and comrades.

I will repeat something I've said before. I think many of the problems that exist today with undisciplined and drifting young men and their phony egos is a result of the loss of mandatory military service. Required military service in the past had the effect of forcing immature young men into situations where they had to learn to be a part of something larger than themselves and to adapt to a modicum of social standards.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

Saw a Hook last week, and recall jumping at 700-800ft, a long ass drop without a prop blast as is the C-130 static line jump. A knife to the gut. Miss that stuff.

I did a night jump at Ft. Bragg where I'm pretty sure we were dropped from under 500 ft. Maybe closer to 300. I hit the dirt no more than five seconds after my T-10 opened. Low cloud cover that night and I think our NG pilots wanted to get back home rather than wait for weather conditions to improve, so they just dropped us from under the clouds. We were expecting a 1200 ft. drop. When my chute deployed I looked down and thought I was headed for a stand of trees so I yanked on my risers to try to drift past them and that was when I hit. My "stand of trees"was a clump of grass about three feet across. There are very few sensations in life quite like that.

 

[scmense]

Graduated High School in 1965. After two years of college and college loans I went to the army. Basic training at Ft. Bliss Texas. Advanced Infantry Training at Ft. Polk Louisiana then 6 months of Advanced Jungle Warrior training in Hawaii. Off to Vietnam for a year in April of 1968. After my return home the hardships of life and work were easy in comparison. It served me well for thirty years. An accident in 2000 left me in chronic pain that my infantry experience cannot overwhelm but it allows me to keep battling and not give up.

 

[Harp]

I did a night jump at Ft. Bragg where I'm pretty sure we were dropped from under 500 ft. Maybe closer to 300. I hit the dirt no more than five seconds after my T-10 opened. Low cloud cover that night and I think our NG pilots wanted to get back home rather than wait for weather conditions to improve, so they just dropped us from under the clouds. We were expecting a 1200 ft. drop. When my chute deployed I looked down and thought I was headed for a stand of trees so I yanked on my risers to try to drift past them and that was when I hit. My "stand of trees"was a clump of grass about three feet across. There are very few sensations in life quite like that.

The jumpmaster and NG crew should have gotten their asses kicked.

 

[Harp]

Basic training at Ft. Bliss Texas. Advanced Infantry Training at Ft. Polk Louisiana then 6 months of Advanced Jungle Warrior training in Hawaii. Off to Vietnam for a year in April of 1968. After my return home....

After the Army cut me loose I chased wahines and waves at Kaneohe beach, wish sometimes I had stayed a surfer bum.

 

[Ticklishchap]

After the Army cut me loose I chased wahines and waves at Kaneohe beach, wish sometimes I had stayed a surfer bum.

Did you ever come across Huna in Hawaii? There are a lot of mainly new age books about it, claiming that it is the traditional Hawaiian spirituality, but most indigenous Hawaiians deny this. Off-topic, but just occurred to me.