Ever wish western companies would compete?

[Edward]

100% thought if that.
Did you see these actual mini Langlitz jackets?
I’m assuming they were made for employees maybe?
Direct copies of a real cascade
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I've seen kiddy-sized jackets from a few brands known in these parts, though I would imagine you'd need to be fairly well-heeled to think about buying one, given how quickly kids grow out of stuff.

 

[Canuck Panda]

100% thought if that.
Did you see these actual mini Langlitz jackets?
I’m assuming they were made for employees maybe?
Direct copies of a real cascade
View attachment 468759 View attachment 468760

They're definitely cute. I remember seeing one Aero A2 jacket kid who grew up and now has an adult size A2.

But I would definitely not pay full price not even half for the kid jackets though. I've always thought these were more promo pieces that tag onto Dad's jacket order.

 

[Aloysius]

What marketing? I have never seen any publicity by them… it's the resellers that may hype things up.

It’s mostly resellers. As @dudewuttheheck put it the other day, people like FCL because the store tells them they’re supposed to like FCL.

Likewise if you look at product descriptions on Standard & Strange (up there with Iron Heart UK as the worst offender for this), it’s absolutely absurd copy trying to spin whichever product as the Second Coming. It certainly works on some people. I know someone who has bought several products from S&S for that very marketing only to realize several thousands of dollars later that few of them even fit.

A perfect example is Fine Creek. The jackets look absolutely nothing like the IG photos, because those jackets have been heavily processed via waterboarding, bondage and other means of artificial enhancement.

I think Fine Creek in particular deeply targets the Western Instagram market, with their absolutely absurd marketing images.

Buzz Rickson’s and Sugar Cane, for example, are more straight (but nice) product shots.

I can imagine Addict being shocked by the interest. He was like thinking WTH, don't you Westerners have the real thing.

Yeah, it’s bizarre to me that Westerners order Addict at twice the price of Lewis + import fees, when Addict jackets only exist to offer an alternative in Japan to the high cost of Lewis there. But they will often cite the fact that it’s Japanese, falling for the same (largely Western!) marketing that the original post in this topic did.

Ultimately, though, I don't think Schott are interested in a niche. Similar to Alpha having dropped their 'Reproduction' series back in the day. These companies are seeking a mass-market where they just wouldn't shift the units in the sort of thing we like round here. It's a shame but that's the way of it. I like my 618 a lot. Wouldn't pay for it what they cost now (almost double what they were about a decade ago, in significant part down to the increasing worthlessness of the pound against the dollar), but it's nice jacket. Still got half an eye out for a good, used 118 and/or 613 one day, maybe. I do remember Rufus had a really nice, old Schott D-pocket, which is not a style I've seen them do in a very long time. What I am interested in seeing at some point, though, is the Schott engineers now that those are getting harder to find at a more affordable price from other brands.

Schott actually makes lots of jackets that are vintage reproductions and the like, but they don’t fluff it up with ad copy about those details, so people often don’t notice. They (and not only in the Japanese market) continue to produce things like reproductions of their 30s/40s D-pockets, their 70s Perfecto jackets, etc but don’t always label them as such.

Schott is not the mass-market company that people on TFL tend to assume it is. Yes, it is more mainstream and larger in scale than Aero or Lewis–but it is by no means a huge operation like Alpha or Nike. Their factory is one, relatively small building in a New York suburb which is still largely overseen by a few members of the Schott family. The fact that their website is still rather old fashioned (probably about even with current Aero in its tech) and their dealer list is still largely some military surplus shops, a department store chain, and then a few enthusiast shops speaks to this.

The issue with Schott prices in the UK, I imagine, is not just the weak pound but the fact that European operations for Schott are run by a licensed company in France, which is a bit like the licensed Red Wing sneaker brand @Blackadder was talking about that runs RW operations in Asia. The French company puts out various low quality leather jackets and accessories, then will stock a few real American Schott items at a markup well beyond simply VAT.

I regret not reaching out to you and a few others before going to their factory sale; could have probably sourced you any jacket you want and had it be around the 300 quid mark even after paying Royal Mail its tribute!

But alas in North America we will have to suffice with bespoke brands like Goodwear, Langlitz, Himel Bros, and along with Vanson and Schott for more accessible options.

Then in Europe you have your Lewis Leather, Thedi, Aero and the bespoke Fields.

Again, I don’t understand this “suffice with” language at all. You have a misconception of the Japanese makers.

You’re still placing them in this category that they don’t in fact occupy.

 

[Mich486]

From what I can see most Japanese brands don’t have much interest in selling abroad. In fact I know of a few brands that more or less reluctantly took on some international dealers and these dealers get seasonal items with a season delay compared to Japan. The no return policy for international orders imho says it all.

 

[Monitor]

Be sure NOT to follow Fjorde lol. Looks like he was paid by aliexpress.

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Lol what happened here!? Despite how annoying he was, most of the stuff he wore usually did fit him nicely but this jacket is a real horror show.
It's been a long while now that the algorithm suggested Fjorde to me tho now that I've mentioned him, that's bound to change. It's not that my IG was lacking in clowns, though.

 

[Liveinstyle33]

The gold mine of information about top brand leather jacket makers here is eloquently described. Good stuff, good members!

 

[Richard Warren]

Those Japanese firms are not selling clothing, they are selling meaning.

There is limited market for that meaning in the US, it is a niche that it is literally impossible for US firms to fill because if they made identical items they would still have different meanings because they were not made in Japan.

 

[Blackadder]

He was really pushing that Top Gun jacket and clearly reaping the benefits of exposure, atleast in his mind.
But imagine having a nice collection as his and pushing aside those jackets and say yes this is the one, the AliExpress special

My algorithm is Fine Creek, Y2, and so much 666 Lewis Leather copies it makes me sick, the people behind that 666 brand must have a little money because they seem to be everywhere.


But alas in North America we will have to suffice with bespoke brands like Goodwear, Langlitz, Himel Bros, and along with Vanson and Schott for more accessible options.

Then in Europe you have your Lewis Leather, Thedi, Aero and the bespoke Fields.

I know there are more here and there



Lewis Leather had great packaging, remember I ordered one and just had terrible luck with the timing of RIP’s departure and they couldn’t figure out my order, just bad timing and I’m sure they are GTG now.
Packing is not necessary for some but just mainstream it is, type unboxing into YouTube and you see people making serious money by unboxing items. Companies like Apple were one of the first I remember to take packaging to another level.

It’s alright to be simple but I looked at your Freewheelers LaBrea thread so many times just amazed at the details that they thought to include. I know you have others just as nice like the Lost Worlds but that Freewheelers is just amazing even if it is more fashion oriented.

If I remember correctly, 666's premium line jackets used to be made in the UK. Not sure now. Have not been to their store during my last few visits to Japan.
Just notice from their website, they are open to overseas order now. They used to be Japan only. Have not been to their website for ages and don't use IG.
From what the members say, I am guessing these brands have probably paid some internet marketing firm to expand their IG exposure.

 

[Edward]

Be sure NOT to follow Fjorde lol. Looks like he was paid by aliexpress.

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No idea of the instagram politics; I opened an account there recently so that in due course I can purchase a hat from someone who uses it as their sales platform, but I really don't have the time for another platform. (I was at one stage hoping for a mass migration away from FB to Insta, but since Zuckerberg is determined to change it into a version of Tiktok, I lost interest.) I actually rather like the design of that jacket, but there's no way I'd risk buying anything of significant price on Aliexpress without being able to be certain it was as represented. This is of course far from unique to Aliexpress (and their resolution centre is actually quite good, certainly more rapidly effective in my experience than some others have been on occasion). The key problem being the sheer hassle and expense of returns at such a distance if they don't meet up. Rather makes it a gamble to buy anything of significant price without prior experience of the seller.

 

[Marc mndt]

but since Zuckerberg is determined to change it into a version of Tiktok, I lost interest.)

It's getting worse and worse. You can tell people are not posting stuff because they have something interesting to share, instead they post because they need their daily fix of likes.

On top of that, my feed is now filled with all these stupid reels of people doing stupid things, cats doing something, 'influencers' unboxing crap they've been given (Fjorde's post), 'rugged' dudes doing a little dance or walk while wearing their newest Iron Heart and 3sixteen gear. I wish there was a way to disable these reels alltogether.

I actually rather like the design of that jacket, but there's no way I'd risk buying anything of significant price on Aliexpress without being able to be certain it was as represented.

It's a mash-up of a B-3 and the Freewheelers Pasadena aviator jacket. It's a fun design, there's many shops on aliexpress wechat or what have you offering a similar design.

For me personally I'd rather spend my money on a jacket made by one of the many great makers we discuss here on tfl. I cannot enjoy a jacket that's made of chemical smelling leather, probably made in a sweatshop by people who are underpaid and have to work 16 hours a day.

 

[dwilson]

I can’t say all makers on Ali express have ethical worker treatment but I was under the impression some of the CN repro designers (bob dong, red tornado, Bronson) had pretty decent working conditions - at least by CN garment worker standards. Though with recent articles about the LA garment district working conditions it isn’t like Made in USA means you’re getting a fairly made piece, either. This isn’t even getting into the conversation about ethics of the raw materials.

Also it has to come from a place of immense privilege to say you’d rather have a Lewis/Field/LW over an ali express jacket. You’re talking about double to quadruple the price. The appeal of Ali express is that you can get a decent looking item at a very low price.

 

[Edward]

It's getting worse and worse. You can tell people are not posting stuff because they have something interesting to share, instead they post because they need their daily fix of likes.

On top of that, my feed is now filled with all these stupid reels of people doing stupid things, cats doing something, 'influencers' unboxing crap they've been given (Fjorde's post), 'rugged' dudes doing a little dance or walk while wearing their newest Iron Heart and 3sixteen gear. I wish there was a way to disable these reels alltogether.

It's a mash-up of a B-3 and the Freewheelers Pasadena aviator jacket. It's a fun design, there's many shops on aliexpress wechat or what have you offering a similar design.

For me personally I'd rather spend my money on a jacket made by one of the many great makers we discuss here on tfl. I cannot enjoy a jacket that's made of chemical smelling leather, probably made in a sweatshop by people who are underpaid and have to work 16 hours a day.

View attachment 468873

It's the unknowns that of course make Aliexpress risky for this kind of stuff.

I can’t say all makers on Ali express have ethical worker treatment but I was under the impression some of the CN repro designers (bob dong, red tornado, Bronson) had pretty decent working conditions - at least by CN garment worker standards. Though with recent articles about the LA garment district working conditions it isn’t like Made in USA means you’re getting a fairly made piece, either. This isn’t even getting into the conversation about ethics of the raw materials.

Also it has to come from a place of immense privilege to say you’d rather have a Lewis/Field/LW over an ali express jacket. You’re talking about double to quadruple the price. The appeal of Ali express is that you can get a decent looking item at a very low price.

Fair points also. It's very easy to forget that most of us on here are actually pretty privileged to have access to some of the stuff we do. The labour conditions thing has been batted around on TFL a lot over the years. It's absolutely true that some places in China do have good conditions and a good wage - to blanket write it all off as sweatshop is as wrong as insisting that Chinese companies cannot make anything of good quality. Of course, if the world demands low unit prices, then the Chinese are happy to build down to a price... that's business. I know little of Chinese employment laws, though in some regards I am aware that they don't mandate the same level of protections as some of us in Europe might be used to.

Unfortunately you're also all too correct that being made elsewhere doesn't exactly guarantee great conditions - or product, for that matter - either. A couple of months ago I ordered - and immediately returned when it arrived - a harrington jacket that was proudly "made in England", but far below the quality of materials of those I own which were made overseas. (Construction was actually pretty good, just very poor raw materials.)

 

[Canuck Panda]

I have that exact shearling aviator from Taobao/Aliexpress. I left it outside for two years now and it has faded a lot. Will take a photo and post it. These jackets are actually made quite well. The only thing bad about them is the poor quality hardware. But the stitch work is on par or even better than some expensive jackets I have.

I've been working in outsourcing for over 25 years now. First it was Mexico and then China, now it's spread out from India to Vietnam and everywhere in between. It was very common in the early 2000's in China for the factory owners to withheld wages from the workers and only pay them in lump sum at the end of the work year (before Chinese new year). This is not the case anymore and hasn't been for a while now. Thanks to phones and internet. Every worker knows their worth and the factory owners now just don't have the leverage they used to. That's why a lot of them moved to less developed countries. The wages in China is not as low as one thinks anymore. The Chinese business cuts cost mostly by going as direct as they can without any middle guys in the middle. And of course some cheap out on material to hit certain price points, but that's the case everywhere in the world. But while wages went up there, the hours became longer. Or the toxic work place culture. In most Asian countries, no one leaves first when it's time to go home. I hope this gets changed soon. No one likes to sleep at their desk/bench. This is so dumb because people are pressured to stay even when there is no actual work.

 

[Edward]

I have that exact shearling aviator from Taobao/Aliexpress. I left it outside for two years now and it has faded a lot. Will take a photo and post it. These jackets are actually made quite well. The only thing bad about them is the poor quality hardware. But the stitch work is on par or even better than some expensive jackets I have.

I've been working in outsourcing for over 25 years now. First it was Mexico and then China, now it's spread out from India to Vietnam and everywhere in between. It was very common in the early 2000's in China for the factory owners to withheld wages from the workers and only pay them in lump sum at the end of the work year (before Chinese new year). This is not the case anymore and hasn't been for a while now. Thanks to phones and internet. Every worker knows their worth and the factory owners now just don't have the leverage they used to. That's why a lot of them moved to less developed countries. The wages in China is not as low as one thinks anymore. The Chinese business cuts cost mostly by going as direct as they can without any middle guys in the middle. And of course some cheap out on material to hit certain price points, but that's the case everywhere in the world. But while wages went up there, the hours became longer. Or the toxic work place culture. In most Asian countries, no one leaves first when it's time to go home. I hope this gets changed soon. No one likes to sleep at their desk/bench. This is so dumb because people are pressured to stay even when there is no actual work.

Sounds awfully like UK academia!

 

[Canuck Panda]

Sounds awfully like UK academia!

I think the last two years didn't help either. Business is actually quite slow right now, but everyone is staying longer or "expected" to at least. Sigh...

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Japanese brands fit into the Japanese denim thing which is why I think most of these stores sell mostly Japanese jackets. It fits into the stores' marketing better.

It's not universal though. Standard and Strange sells Eastman and Simmons Bilt, Iron Heart collabs with Simmons Bilt, there are western stores like Franklin and Poe that sell Schott and Japanese leather jackets, Brogue California sells both Freewheelers and Aero leather jackets, etc. It's not completely unheard of. I've seen Aero jackets hanging in a Japanese denim store.

I agree it would be nice to see Thedi in a store that sells Japanese in the USA denim and thay may happen. Self Edge did used to sell Himel Bros for example. However, European stores that sell Japanese clothing and Japanese denim sell Thedi. East West Apparel and Stuff Fine Goods are both great examples of this.

You also probably won't ever see some of our favorite brands like Goodwear or Field Leathers in stores by nature of their business models. Japanese leather jackets brands mostly aren't like that and are built more on the model of being stocked in stores.

 

[Bfd70]

Not to ride on the derail train but working conditions are a very slippery slope. Does it mean anything to take a stand on leather jackets if you don’t know where your sugar comes from (news in the U.S. anyhow).

 

[navetsea]

I think I can see it from other perspective, japanese jackets brands are mostly ready to wear and sized primarily for their domestic market, so perhaps a bigger size is meant for a chubbier asian dude of the same height, perhaps it has roomier waist and neck and perhaps bigger sleeve hole, but they don't make big jump on shoulder width, and perhaps even smaller jumps on sleeve and body length , maybe that's why they don't concentrate on export to western countries.

perhaps in bigger western cities they are imported anyway because in these cities they are many people coming from allover the world the chance of someone might fit into one is big enough to stock them.

while these western makers mentioned all are made to size companies serving mostly private orders

purely speculation as I don't have japanese jacket but when comparing this sizing by local companies that sell domestically here in my part of asia, they assume their entire market segment are men between 160 (5'3")-180cm(5'11"- 6') that are medium build to chubby.

 

[ES335]

I have that exact shearling aviator from Taobao/Aliexpress. I left it outside for two years now and it has faded a lot. Will take a photo and post it. These jackets are actually made quite well. The only thing bad about them is the poor quality hardware. But the stitch work is on par or even better than some expensive jackets I have.

I've been working in outsourcing for over 25 years now. First it was Mexico and then China, now it's spread out from India to Vietnam and everywhere in between. It was very common in the early 2000's in China for the factory owners to withheld wages from the workers and only pay them in lump sum at the end of the work year (before Chinese new year). This is not the case anymore and hasn't been for a while now. Thanks to phones and internet. Every worker knows their worth and the factory owners now just don't have the leverage they used to. That's why a lot of them moved to less developed countries. The wages in China is not as low as one thinks anymore. The Chinese business cuts cost mostly by going as direct as they can without any middle guys in the middle. And of course some cheap out on material to hit certain price points, but that's the case everywhere in the world. But while wages went up there, the hours became longer. Or the toxic work place culture. In most Asian countries, no one leaves first when it's time to go home. I hope this gets changed soon. No one likes to sleep at their desk/bench. This is so dumb because people are pressured to stay even when there is no actual work.

Many fair pints here, thanks for your thoughts. Personally, and IF I have a choice (and I recall plucking a few nerves here for my views in the past), I refuse on principal to buy from Authoritarian, police-state, largely if not completely labor union-free, environmental regulation-free, aggressive dictatorships. When I have the choice, I'll pay for top-quality goods made in representative democracies with extreme preference for the US domestic market for the above reasons. There are costs other than monetary or floor price in doing business with these regimes. 'Ef 'em.

But I get the appeal here in the US of cheap, foreign-made goods, including clothing.

 

[Canuck Panda]

When it comes to value, A Shinki jacket is best purchased in Japan, A Horween jacket is best purchased in the US, an EU tanned leather jacket is best purchased in the EU. Some makers blurred the lines like Aero and their value on Horween jackets. I don't know how they are doing it, especially given the exchange rates.
A Shinki or Horween or Badalassi jacket made in the far east is gonna be expensive, even with their lower comparable wages. So there is almost no point unless you're a resident there and could take advantage of the local customization capabilities.
The resellers also blur the lines further. The same 1400 dollars jacket in Japan is 2000 dollars in the US. What the resellers bring to the table is the option of return when size don't work out. They would also stock larger sizes. So if you are a size 44 plus you would actually benefit from buying through a US reseller because they charge the same price for all sizes and you won't be able to find one in Japan without pre-order in a Japanese store.
Support the brands you like. And post a few pics when you have time.